Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

[Cow Poke]

You didn't answer what you think that article was saying. Because your links still leave the impression you think it is saying that Christians shouldn't be public with their faith and that is why Buttigieg hasn't.

I am trying to let you say exactly what you think instead of me "mindreading" you like you always accuse me of. But you seem bent on leaving us with the impression that you think Christians shouldn't be public about their faith, while denying that is what you are saying.

nail. smoke. tree.

[Sparko]

nail. smoke. tree.

He always accuses me of mindreading him.

I am trying NOT to do that this time and giving him an opportunity to set me straight about what he thinks the article meant and how it applies to Buttigieg.

If he doesn't he has no excuse the next time he accuses anyone of mindreading and misunderstanding him.

[Cow Poke]

He always accuses me of mindreading him.

I am trying NOT to do that this time and giving him an opportunity to set me straight about what he thinks the article meant and how it applies to Buttigieg.

If he doesn't he has no excuse the next time he accuses anyone of mindreading and misunderstanding him.

That was very good on your part -- I don't think he has managed at all to show what it is he thinks that article says about Buttigieg's lack of public statement as to his own status as a "practicing Christian".

I'm guessing..... well, let me hold off on that, and see if he actually answers, or just keeps linking to previous confusing statements.

[carpedm9587]

OK, lemme try again.

The argument by weblink you posted contains a line that says "The passage can be divided easily into its three parts: giving to the needy, prayer, and fasting." Those are three distinct 'practices' which may well be 'secret' for a Christian.

How does that have anything to do with Buttigieg never being on record (as far as we can tell) as identifying as a "practicing Christian", which was what Tassman declared he did.

Wait...you think I actually READ the article?


That was a joke, for the comically challenged.


So here is a possibility. Giving to the needy, prayer, and fasting could be what Buttigieg sees as the hallmarks of a "practicing Christian," which arguably they are. It is possible claiming the banner "practicing Christian" is, to him, simply an attempt to shine a spotlight on these practices, so he eschews this terminology and these claims. It's the difference between "look at me - I'm a practicing Christian" versus living his faith and speaking the messages he believes Christianity is about.

Or it is possible he is actually just giving lip service to his Christianity for political purposes.

Or...(insert other possibility here)

To assume one or the other is to attempt to read the mind/heart of the man, IMO. He clearly has no problem talking about his faith, and there is nothing in the quoted passage (or article) that suggests "a Christian should not talk about his/her faith." How anyone got that from anything I posted, I have no idea.

[carpedm9587]

Then what did you mean when you said:

I don't understand how else to interpret your phrasing of "adhering to the passage," if you aren't claiming that it teaches exactly that.

Adhering to the passage (and article) which specifically cites prayer, giving, and fasting. I would include in that participating in the community, which involves attending services (praying) and supporting the community (giving).

How you folks jumped from my posts to "Carpe thinks Christians are supposed to be silent/sneaky about their faith" I have no idea. Only you guys can explain that. It seems to me to be part and parcel of conflating "disagreeing" with "mocking."

[Zymologist]

Adhering to the passage (and article) which specifically cites prayer, giving, and fasting. I would include in that participating in the community, which involves attending services (praying) and supporting the community (giving).

How you folks jumped from my posts to "Carpe thinks Christians are supposed to be silent/sneaky about their faith" I have no idea. Only you guys can explain that. It seems to me to be part and parcel of conflating "disagreeing" with "mocking."

I was just trying to understand you better. I didn't say anything about disagreeing vs mocking.

[carpedm9587]

I was just trying to understand you better. I didn't say anything about disagreeing vs mocking.

Agreed - and I did not mean to imply that you were the one who made this conflation. That was Sparko's contribution. I should have been clearer.


ETA: I think I just invented the word "conflation."

[Cow Poke]

Wait...you think I actually READ the article?


That was a joke, for the comically challenged.


So here is a possibility. Giving to the needy, prayer, and fasting could be what Buttigieg sees as the hallmarks of a "practicing Christian," which arguably they are.

OK, here's a major problem with that --
A) he is campaigning on the foundation of taking MY money to give to the poor, etc. That's in no way scriptural.
2) he has already publicly dissed the whole concept of prayer - it really doesn't do anything.
C) "fasting"? If the man doesn't believe that prayer does anything, why would he engage in fasting.

It is possible claiming the banner "practicing Christian" is, to him, simply an attempt to shine a spotlight on these practices, so he eschews this terminology and these claims.

You're REALLY reaching here, and with no basis in fact.

Or it is possible he is actually just giving lip service to his Christianity for political purposes.

That's what his own brother-in-law suggests, and attacking others for THEIR faith while claiming he doesn't do that....

Or...(insert other possibility here)

To assume one or the other is to attempt to read the mind/heart of the man, IMO.

As I've already noted, we (Christians) are to be "fruit inspectors", and I'm seeing no fruit from Buttigieg that would suggest he's a "practicing Christian". And I don't have to "read the mind/heart" of a man who is openly (at times) advocating for abortion with no limits, and choosing to live in rebellion to the teaching of the Scripture.

What he declares in public raises huge problems in the face of his silence on matters of the faith.

But I DO appreciate this apparent honest attempt to finally directly answer the question, albeit incredibly weakly and ineffectively.

[Cow Poke]

Agreed - and I did not mean to imply that you were the one who made this conflation. That was Sparko's contribution. I should have been clearer.


ETA: I think I just invented the word "conflation."

Nope, you just stumbled upon it.

[Cow Poke]

Adhering to the passage (and article) which specifically cites prayer, giving, and fasting. I would include in that participating in the community, which involves attending services (praying) and supporting the community (giving).

How you folks jumped from my posts to "Carpe thinks Christians are supposed to be silent/sneaky about their faith" I have no idea. Only you guys can explain that. It seems to me to be part and parcel of conflating "disagreeing" with "mocking."

I really needed a laugh. Thanks, Carpe!

(or was this not sarcasm?)

[Sparko]

Wait...you think I actually READ the article?


That was a joke, for the comically challenged.


So here is a possibility. Giving to the needy, prayer, and fasting could be what Buttigieg sees as the hallmarks of a "practicing Christian," which arguably they are. It is possible claiming the banner "practicing Christian" is, to him, simply an attempt to shine a spotlight on these practices, so he eschews this terminology and these claims. It's the difference between "look at me - I'm a practicing Christian" versus living his faith and speaking the messages he believes Christianity is about.

Or it is possible he is actually just giving lip service to his Christianity for political purposes.

Or...(insert other possibility here)

To assume one or the other is to attempt to read the mind/heart of the man, IMO. He clearly has no problem talking about his faith, and there is nothing in the quoted passage (or article) that suggests "a Christian should not talk about his/her faith." How anyone got that from anything I posted, I have no idea.

OK thanks, but the article isn't about what "makes a practicing Christian" - it is about what should be done in "secret"

There is nothing that says being a practicing Christian has to be done in secret. We are to be open about being Christian. What the article is talking about is not to do your good deeds in order to gain the approval of men, but to do them to get the approval of God. Think of the TV preachers who dress up in fancy suits and fly in fancy planes and brag about how they have healed people on TV and so on.

So there would be nothing to stop Buttigieg from proclaiming his faith openly or doing good deeds. Just don't use them to promote himself, but to promote God.

But again I just want to point out that I don't know if he is a practicing Christian or not. Just that he hasn't made a point of mentioning it, even though Tassman said he did. He seems to "walk around" it. Much like getting you to give a straight answer

[carpedm9587]

OK, here's a major problem with that --
A) he is campaigning on the foundation of taking MY money to give to the poor, etc. That's in no way scriptural.

That is a discussion I am NOT getting into. I don't do "but the bible says" arguments. I find them pointless. And no - I didn't do that with my article. The article was a "maybe he's looking at this passage and using his interpretation of it to drive his choices." I did not claim or say "the bible definitively says X."

2) he has already publicly dissed the whole concept of prayer - it really doesn't do anything.

I have not seen this - so it is new information to me. I'd be curious to see the original source for this claim. I find a lot of people read into statements a lot of things that were not intended. Happens here all the time.

C) "fasting"? If the man doesn't believe that prayer does anything, why would he engage in fasting.

This is speculation. You might be right. You might not be. And see my answer to 2)

BTW - if you are going to use A), and 2), then the third options should be III or iii. Please get your confusion straight!

You're REALLY reaching here, and with no basis in fact.

I have not claimed that I know "facts." I have said, "it is also possible it could be X." I have repeatedly said "deciding which it is is an exercise in reading minds/hearts.

That's what his own brother-in-law suggests, and attacking others for THEIR faith while claiming he doesn't do that....

And how do you know that his brother's POV isn't poisoned by a dislike of gay people, politicians, etc.? So now we're going to judge a man based on what his brother says about him?

As I've already noted, we (Christians) are to be "fruit inspectors", and I'm seeing no fruit from Buttigieg that would suggest he's a "practicing Christian". And I don't have to "read the mind/heart" of a man who is openly (at times) advocating for abortion with no limits, and choosing to live in rebellion to the teaching of the Scripture.

What he declares in public raises huge problems in the face of his silence on matters of the faith.

Well, you are definitely engaging in "fruit inspection"

But I DO appreciate this apparent honest attempt to finally directly answer the question, albeit incredibly weakly and ineffectively.

Always glad to be of service.

[carpedm9587]

I really needed a laugh. Thanks, Carpe!

(or was this not sarcasm?)

No - it was not sarcasm.

[carpedm9587]

Nope, you just stumbled upon it.

So you give me a link to "conflate," "conflated," and "conflating" to demonstrate that I didn't invent "conflation?"

However, I did my own checking and it is a perfectly valid word.

[carpedm9587]

OK thanks, but the article isn't about what "makes a practicing Christian" - it is about what should be done in "secret"

I didn't say it did. I don't do "the bible says" arguments. I suggested a possibility concerning how Buttigieg might be applying it - explaining his behavior. Underscore - possibility.

There is nothing that says being a practicing Christian has to be done in secret. We are to be open about being Christian. What the article is talking about is not to do your good deeds in order to gain the approval of men, but to do them to get the approval of God. Think of the TV preachers who dress up in fancy suits and fly in fancy planes and brag about how they have healed people on TV and so on.

That, of course, depends on how you define "practicing Christian." If a "practicing Christian is (to Buttigieg) one who attends services (prays) and participates in his community (gives), then openly bragging about it may be seen by him as "boasting" about his faith - explaining why he eschews the words. No one is arguing he is right (if he thinks that) or that he even necessarily thinks that. I am suggesting a positive possible interpretation that explains his actions - and pointing out that knowing what is going on in the man's heart/mind is an exercise in reading minds/hearts.

So there would be nothing to stop Buttigieg from proclaiming his faith openly or doing good deeds. Just don't use them to promote himself, but to promote God.

He clearly speaks about his faith, its roots, and how he thinks it can speak to the world. There are several interviews with him on this theme.

But again I just want to point out that I don't know if he is a practicing Christian or not. Just that he hasn't made a point of mentioning it, even though Tassman said he did. He seems to "walk around" it. Much like getting you to give a straight answer

Then we are talking in circles - because my basic point is accusing him of not being a practicing Christian is as speculative as accusing him of being one, since he has not made this claim about himself (that I can find).

And you asked earlier got examples of right-side identity politics - and here is one of them.

ETA: And I have now hung out here FAR longer than intended, and FAR exceeded my level of interest. I'll leave the last words to y'all.