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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Ya know, this reminds me of the pop quiz Jesus pulled on his Disciples....

    Who does the world say I am?
    (several theories advanced)
    OK, but who do YOU say I am?

    Nowhere (so far) have we seen Buttigieg declare (or even suggest) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Ya know, this reminds me of the pop quiz Jesus pulled on his Disciples....

      Who does the world say I am?
      (several theories advanced)
      OK, but who do YOU say I am?

      Nowhere (so far) have we seen Buttigieg declare (or even suggest) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
      I can find multiple results and videos of Pence claiming to be a Christian openly and examples of him "practicing" Christianity.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I can find multiple results and videos of Pence claiming to be a Christian openly and examples of him "practicing" Christianity.
        Absolutely, because he's not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ....
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
          I believe this is known as "whataboutism."
          Whataboutism is when you attempt to derail a discussion about X, or justify X, by saying "what about Y." In this case, I was noting, with some amusement actually, the difference in the level of reaction. I monitored several threads in which Trump's sudden Christian leanings were actually defended, and he was repeatedly given the benefit of the doubt, with people saying such things as (and I am paraphrasing from memory here), "we don't judge because we don't know what is in a man's heart." I'm simply pointing out that the reaction here is decidedly different. It may be it is different because the people here are not the same as the people there. I have no idea, and not enough interest to go hunting to establish this. I simply not it as a general observation.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Whataboutism is when you attempt to derail a discussion about X, or justify X, by saying "what about Y." In this case, I was noting, with some amusement actually, the difference in the level of reaction. I monitored several threads in which Trump's sudden Christian leanings were actually defended, and he was repeatedly given the benefit of the doubt, with people saying such things as (and I am paraphrasing from memory here), "we don't judge because we don't know what is in a man's heart." I'm simply pointing out that the reaction here is decidedly different. It may be it is different because the people here are not the same as the people there. I have no idea, and not enough interest to go hunting to establish this. I simply not it as a general observation.
            I think much the same rationalization could be given for all of the examples of whataboutism that we've seen elsewhere on the site. I think what you did was a textbook example of it. But, do with that what you will.
            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I can find multiple results and videos of Pence claiming to be a Christian openly and examples of him "practicing" Christianity.
              Or maybe... https://bible.org/seriespage/8-genui...-matthew-61-18
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Whataboutism is when you attempt to derail a discussion about X, or justify X, by saying "what about Y." In this case, I was noting, with some amusement actually, the difference in the level of reaction. I monitored several threads in which Trump's sudden Christian leanings were actually defended, and he was repeatedly given the benefit of the doubt, with people saying such things as (and I am paraphrasing from memory here), "we don't judge because we don't know what is in a man's heart."
                That certainly wasn't me, or my view.

                I'm simply pointing out that the reaction here is decidedly different.
                Again, I commended Tassy for his comparison of Buttigieg to Trump.

                It may be it is different because the people here are not the same as the people there.
                So, let's deal with THIS thread and THIS discussion.

                I have no idea, and not enough interest to go hunting to establish this. I simply not it as a general observation.
                So notted.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Are you saying that someone openly claiming to be a Christian violates--or possibly violates--the teaching of Christ about doing good works to be seen by others?
                  I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    I'm not sure I get what you're saying here.
                    Because it's simply argument by weblink, which is a no-no.

                    Are you saying that someone openly claiming to be a Christian violates--or possibly violates--the teaching of Christ about doing good works to be seen by others?
                    If that's his intent (and I couldn't tell either) then he's overlooking "I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God". and "Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven".

                    MAYBE he's demonstrating what we've been accusing Buttigieg of doing -- "Cafeteria Christianity" -- only selecting limited passages of scripture that you think support your brand of "Christianity".
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                      I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Are you saying that someone openly claiming to be a Christian violates--or possibly violates--the teaching of Christ about doing good works to be seen by others?
                      Actually, I think anyone who is making a public display of their faith could be trying to gain glory in the eyes of others, or they could simply be trying to "let their light shine" or "going forth to preach the word." Likewise, anyone who is not making a public display of their faith could be doing it because they value this teaching (linked), or could be doing it because they are afraid to "let their light shine," for one reason or another. To complain that a person's acts of faith are not (or are) visible seems to ignore this reality.

                      At the end of the day, I have no idea what Pence's or Buttigieg's spiritual motivations are, and I am in no position to judge either one. I simply take them for what they say they are, and assess them on the basis of their stated positions.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-18-2019, 05:11 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Actually, I think anyone who is making a public display of their faith could be trying to gain glory in the eyes of others, or they could simply be trying to "let their light shine" or "going forth to preach the word."
                        One of the main purposes of being Christians is to tell others and "spread the good news" -- the "great commission" is to "go and tell" -- It's just downright nutty to think that Jesus intended His followers to be secret agents.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          A quick search found this article and this article with a couple of facts and quotes from/about Buttigieg that seem to answer that question. According to the article:
                          • He cites St. Augustine as a religious influence
                          • He's an Episcopalian who studied under Sacvan Bercovitch
                          • He was married in the Episcopal church
                          • Quote: "I think it’s unfortunate [the Democratic Party] has lost touch with a religious tradition that I think can help explain and relate our values." (in an interview about his Christian roots)
                          • Quote: "Thankfully, it (same-sex marriage) had been settled as far as our diocese was concerned by the time I got married, because I wanted to be married in the church, and I’m glad we were able to do that"
                          • Quote: "Our right to practice our faith freely is respected up to the point where doing so involves harming others"
                          • He calls himself "liturgically more conservative,"


                          I can find no place where he utters the words "I am Christian." However, his actions and language seem (to me) to clearly indicate he self-identifies as Christian, specifically affiliated with the Episcopal church.
                          Exactly right.

                          Buttigieg has indicated that he identifies as Christian in countless interviews and that his faith has had a strong influence in his life. He is a member of the Episcopal Church and a congregant at the Cathedral of St. James in downtown South Bend. None of this is in serious dispute.

                          But obviously nothing will convince this lot, whatever Buttigieg has to say about his Christianity, because he is a practicing homosexual. This, in the eyes of an Evangelical, rules him out as a REAL Christian.
                          Last edited by Tassman; 06-19-2019, 12:12 AM.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Personally, I find this entire discussion to be a marvelous example of "right identity politics." Terms like "cafeteria Christian" and "only being Christian for politic's sake" are, IMO, an attempt to read into a man's inner motivations. As best I can tell, Buttigieg's life has been closely caught up with his faith. I have no idea if he goes to church every Sunday, or otherwise engages with his chosen diocese. I don't actually care. Whether or not he is a "practicing Christian" has no influence on whether or not I will vote for him or approve of his policies.

                            I also have to admit that I find it amusing that I didn't see this level of feverish "rejection" when Mr. Trump suddenly began spouting Christian themes and getting "prayed over." If there is any person who has been leveraging religion to further his political ends, it is most certainly that man.
                            I don't really have a horse in this particular race, so I'm not sure why I'm still following the discussion. On the point of Trump, I am skeptical but slightly hopeful about his supposed conversion and spirituality, but I'll note that AFAIK, he has not attacked *others* in regard to their religious beliefs.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              One of the main purposes of being Christians is to tell others and "spread the good news" -- the "great commission" is to "go and tell" -
                              "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal" - 1 Corinthians 13:1

                              It's the "love" that's conspicuously lacking among you Evangelicals as opposed to Buttigieg's desire to preach an inclusive, socially active gospel.

                              https://religionnews.com/2019/04/18/...spel-movement/
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Whataboutism is ...
                                Aaaannnddd... Carp un-bows back in.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                                Comment

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