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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Source: The Book of Leviticus by Gordon J. Wenham

    If a man curses his father and mother, he must be put to death (v.9). In the Decalog the command to honor one's parents come after religious duties and before responsibilities to neighbors. Here the penal law follows the same order: cursing father and mother is sandwiched between necromancy (v. 6) and adultery (v. 10). All these sins are regarded as meriting the death penalty.

    "To curse" means more than uttering the occasional angry word. 2 Sam. 16:5ff.; Job 3:1ff. give some idea of the venom and bitter feelings that cursing could entail. It is the very antithesis of "honoring." To honor in Hebrew literally means "to make light of, despicable." That such cursing deserves the death penalty is reiterated elsewhere in Scripture (Exod. 21:17; Prov. 20:20; Matt. 15:4; Mark 7:10; cf. Deut. 21:18ff.). This point is underlined here by the phrase his guilt is his own, literally "his blood is in him." This phrase occurs only in Ezek. 18:33; 33:5 and in this chapter as a coda to several of the laws (vv. 11, 12, 13, 16, 27), apparently in justification of the death penalty in these cases. It seems to be equivalent to the commoner phrase "his blood shall be on his head" (e.g., Josh. 2:19; 2 Sam. 1:16). If a man breaks such a law, he does so knowing the consequences, and therefore cannot object to the penalty imposed.

    The sanctity of parental authority implied by this law is striking. Whereas in certain respects OT penal law was much more lenient than that of neighboring contemporary cultures, it was more strict with regard to offenses against religion and family life. Cursing father or mother is singled out for special censure, partly out of a determination to maintain the structure of the family, and partly because the parents represent God's authority to the child: to curse them is almost tantamount to blasphemy. Nevertheless, rarely if ever can the death penalty have been invoked for this offense. Like other punishments laid down in in the law, it represents a maximum not a minimum.

    Other capital crimes listed in vv. 10-16 cover adultery (v. 10; cf. 18:20; Deut. 22:22), incest with close relatives (vv. 11,12, 14; cf. 18:7-8, 15, 17), homosexuality (v. 13; cf. 18:22), and bestiality (vv. 15-16; cf. 18:23; Exod. 22:18 [Eng. 19]). Then follow crimes for which no human penalty is laid down, but instead divine punishment is promised. Cohabitation with a sister (v. 17; cf. 18:9, 11) and intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period (v. 18; cf. 18:19) are punished by "cutting off" (cf. vv. 3, 5, 6 and 17:4). Childlessness will result from cohabitation with an aunt by marriage (v.. 20) or sister-in-law (v. 21; cf. 18:16). An alternative penalty, apparently intermediate between cutting-off and childlessness, is prescribed for intercoures with a blood aunt: they will bear their guilt (v. 19; cf. 18:12-13).

    © Copyright Original Source




    Keep in mind that in the rest of the ancient near east, punishment for breaking laws was often far more severe, often involving torture and mutilation of the offender. The reason for the relative harshness for breaking these particular laws was to keep Israel sanctified and purified from the rest of the nations so that Israel could usher in the promised Messiah and bring all of the world, both Jew and Gentile, both you and I, back into communion with the creator of the universe. These laws were created in a heavily collectivist agrarian state that lacked prisons, policing, and the social nets that we take for granted. These laws were created in a pre-Pentecost, pre-Incarnation period when the Holy Spirit was only accessible at limited times to the prophets of Yahweh. They were issued under the shadow of a true theocracy that was hampered by the inaccessibility of the Holy Spirit. A theocracy that, while in power, rarely, if ever, carried out these extreme punishments, and whose power would eventually be usurped under occupation and exile. Under the Christian worldview, humanity now lives under a drastically different set of rules. One where moral failings are still sinful, and to be avoided, but where punishment is doled out by secular authorities, not a theocracy. Christians believe that through Jesus' death and resurrection, we are now under a new administration of grace where rather than punishment, God would rather us all turn from our sin, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and live more than abundant lives today and forever.

    So, yes, Christian do believe that God proscribed certain max punishments for breaking his laws at a very particular place, period and context within history, and that he was justified for doing so within that place, period and context. And it does not apply to all places, periods and contexts. I'm not sure why no one else answered this question, but if I had to guess it wasn't because they were chicken, but because previous experience has taught them that anything that would take time to explain to you would likely be waved away, or further a sideline discussion that no one in this threads is interesting in engaging. Especially seeing as a lot of this sort of thing has been explained to you before.
    Nice post. Great to see you around

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post

      So, yes, Christian do believe that God proscribed certain max punishments for breaking his laws at a very particular place, period and context within history, and that he was justified for doing so within that place, period and context. And it does not apply to all places, periods and contexts. I'm not sure why no one else answered this question, but if I had to guess it wasn't because they were chicken, but because previous experience has taught them that anything that would take time to explain to you would likely be waved away, or further a sideline discussion that no one in this threads is interesting in engaging. Especially seeing as a lot of this sort of thing has been explained to you before.

      I kind of said the same thing: Right Jim, Christ ushered in a New Covenant. Christians do not live under a Theocracy like the Hebrews did. The Theocracy will return with Christ's second coming and it will be universal. And God will judge us at that point, and those who are found wanting will be executed - that is called the "second death."


      But as usual you said it better...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        I'm not sure why no one else answered this question, but if I had to guess it wasn't because they were chicken, but because previous experience has taught them that anything that would take time to explain to you would likely be waved away, or further a sideline discussion that no one in this threads is interesting in engaging. Especially seeing as a lot of this sort of thing has been explained to you before.
        EGGzackly!!!

        (speaking of chickens)
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Source: The Book of Leviticus by Gordon J. Wenham

          If a man curses his father and mother, he must be put to death (v.9). In the Decalog the command to honor one's parents come after religious duties and before responsibilities to neighbors. Here the penal law follows the same order: cursing father and mother is sandwiched between necromancy (v. 6) and adultery (v. 10). All these sins are regarded as meriting the death penalty.

          "To curse" means more than uttering the occasional angry word. 2 Sam. 16:5ff.; Job 3:1ff. give some idea of the venom and bitter feelings that cursing could entail. It is the very antithesis of "honoring." To honor in Hebrew literally means "to make light of, despicable." That such cursing deserves the death penalty is reiterated elsewhere in Scripture (Exod. 21:17; Prov. 20:20; Matt. 15:4; Mark 7:10; cf. Deut. 21:18ff.). This point is underlined here by the phrase his guilt is his own, literally "his blood is in him." This phrase occurs only in Ezek. 18:33; 33:5 and in this chapter as a coda to several of the laws (vv. 11, 12, 13, 16, 27), apparently in justification of the death penalty in these cases. It seems to be equivalent to the commoner phrase "his blood shall be on his head" (e.g., Josh. 2:19; 2 Sam. 1:16). If a man breaks such a law, he does so knowing the consequences, and therefore cannot object to the penalty imposed.

          The sanctity of parental authority implied by this law is striking. Whereas in certain respects OT penal law was much more lenient than that of neighboring contemporary cultures, it was more strict with regard to offenses against religion and family life. Cursing father or mother is singled out for special censure, partly out of a determination to maintain the structure of the family, and partly because the parents represent God's authority to the child: to curse them is almost tantamount to blasphemy. Nevertheless, rarely if ever can the death penalty have been invoked for this offense. Like other punishments laid down in in the law, it represents a maximum not a minimum.

          Other capital crimes listed in vv. 10-16 cover adultery (v. 10; cf. 18:20; Deut. 22:22), incest with close relatives (vv. 11,12, 14; cf. 18:7-8, 15, 17), homosexuality (v. 13; cf. 18:22), and bestiality (vv. 15-16; cf. 18:23; Exod. 22:18 [Eng. 19]). Then follow crimes for which no human penalty is laid down, but instead divine punishment is promised. Cohabitation with a sister (v. 17; cf. 18:9, 11) and intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period (v. 18; cf. 18:19) are punished by "cutting off" (cf. vv. 3, 5, 6 and 17:4). Childlessness will result from cohabitation with an aunt by marriage (v.. 20) or sister-in-law (v. 21; cf. 18:16). An alternative penalty, apparently intermediate between cutting-off and childlessness, is prescribed for intercoures with a blood aunt: they will bear their guilt (v. 19; cf. 18:12-13).

          © Copyright Original Source




          Keep in mind that in the rest of the ancient near east, punishment for breaking laws was often far more severe, often involving torture and mutilation of the offender. The reason for the relative harshness for breaking these particular laws was to keep Israel sanctified and purified from the rest of the nations so that Israel could usher in the promised Messiah and bring all of the world, both Jew and Gentile, both you and I, back into communion with the creator of the universe. These laws were created in a heavily collectivist agrarian state that lacked prisons, policing, and the social nets that we take for granted. These laws were created in a pre-Pentecost, pre-Incarnation period when the Holy Spirit was only accessible at limited times to the prophets of Yahweh. They were issued under the shadow of a true theocracy that was hampered by the inaccessibility of the Holy Spirit. A theocracy that, while in power, rarely, if ever, carried out these extreme punishments, and whose power would eventually be usurped under occupation and exile. Under the Christian worldview, humanity now lives under a drastically different set of rules. One where moral failings are still sinful, and to be avoided, but where punishment is doled out by secular authorities, not a theocracy. Christians believe that through Jesus' death and resurrection, we are now under a new administration of grace where rather than punishment, God would rather us all turn from our sin, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and live more than abundant lives today and forever.

          So, yes, Christian do believe that God proscribed certain max punishments for breaking his laws at a very particular place, period and context within history, and that he was justified for doing so within that place, period and context. And it does not apply to all places, periods and contexts. I'm not sure why no one else answered this question, but if I had to guess it wasn't because they were chicken, but because previous experience has taught them that anything that would take time to explain to you would likely be waved away, or further a sideline discussion that no one in this threads is interesting in engaging. Especially seeing as a lot of this sort of thing has been explained to you before.
          Hi Adrift. Thank you for setting the record straight and informing the Christians here that their god did indeed command that human beings be executed, and they were ordered executed by means of stoning to death and burning to death which today we would argue to be immoral and abhorent. Forget all the spin, it's immoral and abhorant, period! What's interesting to me is that those replying here, other than yourself, either didn't know, or couldn't admit that to be the case.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Hi Adrift. Thank you for setting the record straight and informing the Christians here that their god did indeed command that human beings be executed, and they were ordered executed by means of stoning to death and burning to death which today we would argue to be immoral and abhorent. Forget all the spin, it's immoral and abhorant, period! What's interesting to me is that those replying here, other than yourself, either didn't know, or couldn't admit that to be the case.
            Jim, I said pages ago that God executed people. What is your point? And abhorrent to whom? You? Remember in your atheistic world all ethics are relative anyway, so no big deal...
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment



            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Hi Adrift. Thank you for setting the record straight and informing the Christians here that their god did indeed command that human beings be executed, and they were ordered executed by means of stoning to death and burning to death which today we would argue to be immoral and abhorent. Forget all the spin, it's immoral and abhorant, period!


              See what you've been missing, Adrift?

              What's interesting to me is that those replying here, other than yourself, either didn't know, or couldn't admit that to be the case.
              He actually addressed that, and you're proving him correct.
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I'm not sure why no one else answered this question, but if I had to guess it wasn't because they were chicken, but because previous experience has taught them that anything that would take time to explain to you would likely be waved away, or further a sideline discussion that no one in this threads is interesting in engaging. Especially seeing as a lot of this sort of thing has been explained to you before.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                I kind of said the same thing: Right Jim, Christ ushered in a New Covenant. Christians do not live under a Theocracy like the Hebrews did. The Theocracy will return with Christ's second coming and it will be universal. And God will judge us at that point, and those who are found wanting will be executed - that is called the "second death."

                Actually, it's called mythology.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Actually, it's called mythology.
                  More hate speech, huh. Hypocrite.
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Then you've been flat out lying all this time, Reverend Tassman?
                    Nope. My argument has consistently been that practicing Christians have a long history of disagreeing among themselves as to what, according to scripture, is acceptable behavior for Christians.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                      More hate speech, huh. Hypocrite.
                      ...an opinion, not "hate speech".
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • According to the new world order, saying, "I disagree" is hate speech. It diminishes the disagreed-with-person's status as a human, don't you know?
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          According to the new world order, saying, "I disagree" is hate speech. It diminishes the disagreed-with-person's status as a human, don't you know?
                          That's only if the position being disagreed with isn't considered conservative.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That's only if the position being disagreed with isn't considered conservative.
                            Which is why I specified "new world order." I haven't noticed conservatives entering a state of hysterical breakdown when I disagree with them.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Actually, it's called mythology.
                              You hope...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                Actually, it's called mythology.
                                More evidence of your anti-Christian bigotry. Keep it coming, Reverend Tassy.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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