Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

[Cow Poke]

Ah, yeah. That's unfortunately not uncommon. It's become so much the norm in secular society that it's hard to break off when you start getting serious about making Jesus Lord. I lived with a couple of girlfriends in the past when I was still floating around in my faith, and wasn't taking it seriously. Had to knock that nonsense off.

I really haven't been to a church that has had deacons, at least, not in name. They're usually called something along the lines of "minister," "counselor," or referred to as "pastor," even though they're more like an assistant pastor to the head pastor. Not sure why there's such a reluctance to use certain labels in some denominations/non-denominations. I've been to churches with no deacons, but with bishops, for instance. And others with no bishops at all. I'm going to be checking out the local Calvary Chapel this weekend (didn't even know we had one till last week), and I know they eschew a heavily hierarchical system of church governance (especially a board of lay "elders" which I kinda get). Should be interesting.

We have one deacon left over from the previous administration, and he's a good guy who does a good job. We really don't have a need for "deacons", though. I'm actually seeing more and more Baptist Churches have Elders and/or Deacons, or - in one Church, we had a group of men we called "the King's Men". They were more about service than authority, just like the Biblical Deacons.

As far as Calvary Chapel, don't they have Elders, and the Pastor is one of the Elders? If I weren't Baptist, I could probably be Calvary Chapel. Checking them out here.

[Cow Poke]

What are you arguing about?

Your stubborn dishonesty. You made a claim you cannot support, and you do not have the integrity to admit you were wrong.

[One Bad Pig]

We have one deacon left over from the previous administration, and he's a good guy who does a good job. We really don't have a need for "deacons", though. I'm actually seeing more and more Baptist Churches have Elders and/or Deacons, or - in one Church, we had a group of men we called "the King's Men". They were more about service than authority, just like the Biblical Deacons.

As far as Calvary Chapel, don't they have Elders, and the Pastor is one of the Elders? If I weren't Baptist, I could probably be Calvary Chapel. Checking them out here.

In my college fellowship (affiliated with Christian & Missionary Alliance), we had Elders (authority) and Deaconesses (service).

[Cow Poke]

In my college fellowship (affiliated with Christian & Missionary Alliance), we had Elders (authority) and Deaconesses (service).

Did you intend to say Deaconesses, as in female? We had those when I was a kid - my Mom was one. They primarily prepared the Communion elements, and ministered to women.

[Mountain Man]

We have one deacon left over from the previous administration, and he's a good guy who does a good job. We really don't have a need for "deacons", though. I'm actually seeing more and more Baptist Churches have Elders and/or Deacons, or - in one Church, we had a group of men we called "the King's Men". They were more about service than authority, just like the Biblical Deacons.

As far as Calvary Chapel, don't they have Elders, and the Pastor is one of the Elders? If I weren't Baptist, I could probably be Calvary Chapel. Checking them out here.

Speaking of "leftover administrators", my pastor once told me a story about a time he was appointed to lead a troubled church where the worship leader was openly New Age, but she was very popular and well-liked, and so he couldn't fire her without causing a major rift in the church body. It so happened the woman was starting a "spiritual life" center and wanted my pastor to bless her "ministry". My pastor went to his mentor for advice, and his mentor said, "Invite me to the dedication, and I'll take care of it." At the dedication, he prayed, "Lord, whatever is done in this ministry in accordance with your Word, let it prosper, and whatever is not done in accordance with your Word, let it be destroyed!" The woman was so incensed that she left the church on the spot.

[One Bad Pig]

Did you intend to say Deaconesses, as in female? We had those when I was a kid - my Mom was one. They primarily prepared the Communion elements, and ministered to women.

[Cow Poke]

And, yeah, most of the Churches (of which I'm aware) that have both Elders and Deacons - it's Elders/Authority/spiritual guidance, and Deacons/Service. I don't see how you could not come to that conclusion from the Bible.

[Littlejoe]

I don't know if all A/G churches operate like ours. We don't have an Elders Board...our Deacon Board is all we have. There's 5 of us on the Board plus the Pastor. In our church, the Pastor is Chairman of the Board though he doesn't vote unless to break a tie (which if all 5 of us are there, doesn't happen). Deacons serve for 3 years and have to rotate off the board for at least 1 year. Our role is focused on service, representing the church body to the Pastor (and vice versa if need be), all of us on the board serve in some capacity...many of us in several roles...ushers, door greeters, Sound or Media center, camera...etc.

[Cow Poke]

I don't know if all A/G churches operate like ours. We don't have an Elders Board...our Deacon Board is all we have. There's 5 of us on the Board plus the Pastor. In our church, the Pastor is Chairman of the Board though he doesn't vote unless to break a tie (which if all 5 of us are there, doesn't happen). Deacons serve for 3 years and have to rotate off the board for at least 1 year. Our role is focused on service, representing the church body to the Pastor (and vice versa if need be), all of us on the board serve in some capacity...many of us in several roles...ushers, door greeters, Sound or Media center, camera...etc.

The Pastor who discipled me, and whose boots I wear to preach cause he's just finished his first year in Heaven () encouraged me to help the Church get rid of the "board" nomenclature, and call it "body" instead. Semantics, perhaps, but "Deacon Board" makes it sound like they "have the power".

[Littlejoe]

The Pastor who discipled me, and whose boots I wear to preach cause he's just finished his first year in Heaven () encouraged me to help the Church get rid of the "board" nomenclature, and call it "body" instead. Semantics, perhaps, but "Deacon Board" makes it sound like they "have the power".

Well...technically, in our Church, the Pastor plus the Board DO have the power. We're not nearly as democratic as most Baptist churches are.

[One Bad Pig]

The Pastor who discipled me, and whose boots I wear to preach cause he's just finished his first year in Heaven () encouraged me to help the Church get rid of the "board" nomenclature, and call it "body" instead. Semantics, perhaps, but "Deacon Board" makes it sound like they "have the power".

We have an annual parish-wide meeting to approve the budget, and parish-wide meetings as needed to discuss big-ticket items if they come up. We have a parish council which handles everything administrative or service-related, elected on a yearly basis. Our priest sits on the council in an advisory capacity, though 10% of the budget is "pastor's discretion" (which usually means charity). As we are very much hierarchical, any complaints about the priest in his spiritual/authoritative role go to the bishop. Few parishes in our diocese have a deacon, because they have to graduate seminary and, due to a general shortage of priests, they typically become ordained to the priesthood in very short order.

[Adrift]

As far as Calvary Chapel, don't they have Elders, and the Pastor is one of the Elders? If I weren't Baptist, I could probably be Calvary Chapel. Checking them out here.

Sorry, I guess I mangled that a bit. I meant, as far as I know, they don't have an elders-type hierarchy, where the board of elders essentially run the church, and the pastor is, in effect, accountable to them. Rather they seem to consider elders as assistants to the pastor. Essentially filling the roles of deacons I guess.

The whole business of church governance is pretty interesting. The Bible and early church writings discusses a few seemingly different forms of church governments as it grew from small house fellowships, and/or meeting at the local synagogue to the giant hierarchical thing that we see by the 4th century. For a while the lines seemed to fuzz between bishop/pastor/elder until later in the 2nd or 3rd century.

Anyhow, yeah, I'm mostly familiar with Calvary Chapel from Chuck Missler and Greg Laurie (and a documentary on the late Jesus-Freak, Lonnie Frisbee, who came out as gay later in life). I didn't even know my town had a Calvary Chapel until I found out that there's a pastor here who is in the MIQLAT network, which is a network of people who are interested in Dr. Michael Heiser's work. Turns out the pastor has a Masters in Theological Studies, and a Ph.D. in apologetics, and has written a number of articles for Got Questions? and CARM. So, I'm kinda excited to see what he's all about. The church I'm going to now is nice, and they're familiar with Biblical scholarship, often name dropping people like NT Wright, John Walton, Craig Evans and the like, but they're a little soft in the charismatic department, and I'm looking for something that sort of bridges that without going crazy. Looking over the link you...linked.. I don't see anything I really disagree with, though I'm pretty open eschatology-wise (I lean Futurist, but also think that eschatological prophecy had/has a now and not yet dynamic). I'm also probably a bit more open about female leadership at the pulpit. I think people like Phoebe and Junia mentioned in the epistles kind of pave the road for female teachers and leaders, even if they're not technically called "bishop" or "pastor."

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to it.

[Cow Poke]

We have an annual parish-wide meeting to approve the budget, and parish-wide meetings as needed to discuss big-ticket items if they come up. We have a parish council which handles everything administrative or service-related, elected on a yearly basis. Our priest sits on the council in an advisory capacity, though 10% of the budget is "pastor's discretion" (which usually means charity). As we are very much hierarchical, any complaints about the priest in his spiritual/authoritative role go to the bishop. Few parishes in our diocese have a deacon, because they have to graduate seminary and, due to a general shortage of priests, they typically become ordained to the priesthood in very short order.

Interesting. Our Church is experiencing a great deal of... um... we're just getting along! We have business meetings on an as-needed basis, but they trust me for the over-all leadership of the Church. If an unexpected finance matter comes up (or some other challenge) I confer with the Deacon Chairman (he's the entire Deacon body ) and the Finance Chair, then I give an update to the Church on Wednesday night, if needed.

When I first got to this church, there was always talk about "what the bylaws say", because they had been through a lot of turmoil. It's pretty much been accepted, however, that things are going well, God is blessing, and let's just handle problems as they come up.

In fact, about a year and a half ago, we pretty much voted for this "process" in our business meeting, and it was agreed..... "why meet just to meet?" (business meetings, that is)

[Cow Poke]

Sorry, I guess I mangled that a bit. I meant, as far as I know, they don't have an elders-type hierarchy, where the board of elders essentially run the church, and the pastor is, in effect, accountable to them. Rather they seem to consider elders as assistants to the pastor. Essentially filling the roles of deacons I guess.

Yeah, I noticed that while reading their website. The Bible Church nearby, whose Pastor is a very good friend, has the "elders are in charge, and the Pastor (who is also an elder) is accountable to the elders.

The whole business of church governance is pretty interesting. The Bible and early church writings discusses a few seemingly different forms of church governments as it grew from small house fellowships, and/or meeting at the local synagogue to the giant hierarchical thing that we see by the 4th century. For a while the lines seemed to fuzz between bishop/pastor/elder until later in the 2nd or 3rd century.

Anyhow, yeah, I'm mostly familiar with Calvary Chapel from Chuck Missler and Greg Laurie (and a documentary on the late Jesus-Freak, Lonnie Frisbee, who came out as gay later in life). I didn't even know my town had a Calvary Chapel until I found out that there's a pastor here who is in the MIQLAT network, which is a network of people who are interested in Dr. Michael Heiser's work. Turns out the pastor has a Masters in Theological Studies, and a Ph.D. in apologetics, and has written a number of articles for Got Questions? and CARM. So, I'm kinda excited to see what he's all about. The church I'm going to now is nice, and they're familiar with Biblical scholarship, often name dropping people like NT Wright, John Walton, Craig Evans and the like, but they're a little soft in the charismatic department, and I'm looking for something that sort of bridges that without going crazy. Looking over the link you...linked.. I don't see anything I really disagree with, though I'm pretty open eschatology-wise (I lean Futurist, but also think that eschatological prophecy had/has a now and not yet dynamic). I'm also probably a bit more open about female leadership at the pulpit. I think people like Phoebe and Junia mentioned in the epistles kind of pave the road for female teachers and leaders, even if they're not technically called "bishop" or "pastor."

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to it.

And report back!

[One Bad Pig]

Interesting. Our Church is experiencing a great deal of... um... we're just getting along! We have business meetings on an as-needed basis, but they trust me for the over-all leadership of the Church. If an unexpected finance matter comes up (or some other challenge) I confer with the Deacon Chairman (he's the entire Deacon body ) and the Finance Chair, then I give an update to the Church on Wednesday night, if needed.

When I first got to this church, there was always talk about "what the bylaws say", because they had been through a lot of turmoil. It's pretty much been accepted, however, that things are going well, God is blessing, and let's just handle problems as they come up.

In fact, about a year and a half ago, we pretty much voted for this "process" in our business meeting, and it was agreed..... "why meet just to meet?" (business meetings, that is)

As I understand it, we need to meet at least annually to comply with (secular) regulations; we need to have at least a treasurer, trustee, secretary, and auditor. We also always have 2 people (not one of those 4 positions) to count the offering, for accountability.