Martyrdom of Antipas

[xcav8tor]

I mean, in particular, Paul's image of the olive tree - which covers the bulk of the chapter, and which you did not address. "They" appears to be referring back to the branches cut off for unbelief, not verse 26. If your exegesis falls apart when the referent of a pronoun is shifted.... Your exegesis also makes hash of places where Jesus castigates Israelite towns such as Bethsaida and Chorazin as having fates worse than Sodom and where He casts down woes upon the Israelite Pharisees, and where Jesus condemns Israelites as sons of the devil for trusting in their descent from Abraham. The New Testament does not war with itself.

[One Bad Pig]

All of your examples were of "this generation", the people Jesus was speaking to and who specifically rejected Him.

I am not aware of subsequent generations accepting him. Perhaps you can point to evidence of such.

Where is your evidence that all Israelites throughout time after that were replaced?

I wouldn't say all, since there have been Israelites who have come to faith in Jesus as their messiah. You're free to point to evidence in scripture which states that those who have not believed in Jesus as the Messiah will be saved because they are descendants of Abraham, contra John 8.

[One Bad Pig]

You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.

Look, I am more than willing to accept any Israelite who believes in Jesus as the Messiah as a fellow believer. I do not at all reject the possibility that a mass conversion of Jews to Christianity will occur near the end. If that happens, I will rejoice. I am even willing to accept that as a sign that the end is near. I just am not especially interested in eschatological prophecy because, as Jesus made clear, we do not know when He will return and thus we should be ready at all times for that. I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.

[tabibito]

You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.

Look, I am more than willing to accept any Israelite who believes in Jesus as the Messiah as a fellow believer. I do not at all reject the possibility that a mass conversion of Jews to Christianity will occur near the end. If that happens, I will rejoice. I am even willing to accept that as a sign that the end is near. I just am not especially interested in eschatological prophecy because, as Jesus made clear, we do not know when He will return and thus we should be ready at all times for that. I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.

Possibly -


There are places where it seems that all Israel will be restored: not forgetting the circumscribed and hyperbolic uses of "all." There doesn't seem to have been a time when Jerusalem has said "blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord" post resurrection, which seems to be the point of that reference (willing to be shown that the interpretation is wrong.) But I don't spend a lot of time looking into end-times prophecies.

[xcav8tor]

I mean, in particular, Paul's image of the olive tree - which covers the bulk of the chapter, and which you did not address. "They" appears to be referring back to the branches cut off for unbelief, not verse 26. If your exegesis falls apart when the referent of a pronoun is shifted.... You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.

Hi One Bad Pig,

To the best of my knowledge, the "they" of Romans 11:28 must grammatically refer back to the nearest antecedent, which is Israel of verse 25 which has experienced a partial hardening but who will eventually be saved. You would have to skip over this in order to have "they" refer back further to the branches which were broken off in verse 19. And even if the "they" who are enemies applies to the broken branches, it would still refer to Israel "who are loved on account of the patriarchs." All Israel WILL BE saved because, as verse 29 states, "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." God's faithfulness to Israel is our guarantee of God's faithfulness to the church.

Your understanding of Romans 11 here still makes no sense to me. If you don't mind, perhaps you can copy the relevant verses and insert the word "Church" where you feel it is the intended meaning so I can view the text as you see it.

[xcav8tor]

You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.

Hi One Bad Pig,
Now that I've addressed it, would you please reply?

I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.

[One Bad Pig]

Hi One Bad Pig,

To the best of my knowledge, the "they" of Romans 11:28 must grammatically refer back to the nearest antecedent, which is Israel of verse 25 which has experienced a partial hardening but who will eventually be saved. You would have to skip over this in order to have "they" refer back further to the branches which were broken off in verse 19. And even if the "they" who are enemies applies to the broken branches, it would still refer to Israel "who are loved on account of the patriarchs." All Israel WILL BE saved because, as verse 29 states, "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." God's faithfulness to Israel is our guarantee of God's faithfulness to the church.

Your understanding of Romans 11 here still makes no sense to me. If you don't mind, perhaps you can copy the relevant verses and insert the word "Church" where you feel it is the intended meaning so I can view the text as you see it.

Well, let's step back a little, and note that "they" in Rom. 11:28 is not eve present in the Greek. Paul is using very condensed language here (as is not unusual for him). What we need to do is be careful not to let our desired interpretation here conflict with other scripture, which is replete (especially in the Tanakh) with examples where a faithful remnant is saved, and the rest perish. If you refer back to the scripture to which Paul alludes,

Note the language regarding enemies and in particular the slightly different language of verse 20, and compare with what Paul is saying about enemies in Rom. 11:28.

Source: Is 27:6-9 NKJV

6 Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob; Israel shall blossom and bud, And fill the face of the world with fruit. 7 Has He struck Israel as He struck those who struck him? Or has He been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by Him? 8 In measure, by sending it away, You contended with it. He removes it by His rough wind In the day of the east wind. 9 Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered; And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: When he makes all the stones of the altar Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust, Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand.

© Copyright Original Source

When Paul's references are investigated, it becomes your position which is discovered to be untenable, not mine. It becomes clear that "all Israel" means "those who turn from transgression" (Is. 59:20) and those who "take root in Jacob" (Is. 27:6), not the enemies of Christ (though of course they also have opportunity to repent and be grafted in once again - Rom 11:23). Once your mistaken declarative interpretation of Rom. 11:26a is cleared up, note the much less absolute language subsequent to it: v. 31 "...they also may obtain mercy"; v. 32 "that he might have mercy on all."

[One Bad Pig]

Please note that the position I hold does not require the signs to only point to AD 70; double fulfillment is possible. You also flat ignored pretty much all I said about the very commonplace notion throughout church history which saw Christ's return just around the corner. All you're doing, just like those before you, is interpreting recent events to assert that Jesus' coming is really, really, soon, for really this time!!!!!

1 Thes. 5 suggests to me that we should always try to be ready for His return, regardless of what is going on around us. I don't know why you seem to think you need to argue against that notion.

In my opinion, end times fervor may be good to get people in the doors, but if that's their anchor, time goes by and the sense of urgency fades (because it's just not possible to keep that at a high level without burning out), and they drift away because what's been predicted isn't coming to pass. Now you've got apostates, worse off than they were in the first place.

[xcav8tor]

Well, let's step back a little, and note that "they" in Rom. 11:28 is not even present in the Greek...
When Paul's references are investigated, it becomes your position which is discovered to be untenable, not mine. It becomes clear that "all Israel" means "those who turn from transgression" (Is. 59:20) and those who "take root in Jacob" (Is. 27:6), not the enemies of Christ (though of course they also have opportunity to repent and be grafted in once again - Rom 11:23). Once your mistaken declarative interpretation of Rom. 11:26a is cleared up, note the much less absolute language subsequent to it: v. 31 "...they also may obtain mercy"; v. 32 "that he might have mercy on all."

Hi One Bad Pig,

Granted that those who WILL BE saved in the future, (ie "all Israel") "means those who turn from transgression" and "who take root in Jacob," Paul is talking about Israel which was currently blinded ("blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."). These are the ones who are "beloved for the sake of the fathers, and who are presently - concerning the gospel - "enemies for your sake":

28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

If "all Israel" who are "blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in" and who are "beloved for the sake of the Fathers" ARE NOT the "enemies" spoken of, then which enemy is Paul referring to?

[xcav8tor]

Please note that the position I hold does not require the signs to only point to AD 70; double fulfillment is possible. You also flat ignored pretty much all I said about the very commonplace notion throughout church history which saw Christ's return just around the corner. All you're doing, just like those before you, is interpreting recent events to assert that Jesus' coming is really, really, soon, for really this time!!!!!

1 Thes. 5 suggests to me that we should always try to be ready for His return, regardless of what is going on around us. I don't know why you seem to think you need to argue against that notion.

In my opinion, end times fervor may be good to get people in the doors, but if that's their anchor, time goes by and the sense of urgency fades (because it's just not possible to keep that at a high level without burning out), and they drift away because what's been predicted isn't coming to pass. Now you've got apostates, worse off than they were in the first place.

Hi One Bad Pig,

I agree that a double fulfillment of certain signs pertaining to 70 AD is possible (more likely a necessity).

I am not ignoring that the church throughout the centuries felt Christ's return was "just around the corner." The fact remains, however, that they were mistaken because they didn't understand that Israel had to become a nation again in order for Christ to return to rescue the nation. Only since 1948 did Christ's return become prophetically feasible.

Neither am I arguing against 1 Thess. 5 that we should always be ready for His return. How do you think I am opposing this?

Immanent fulfillment of prophecy is never meant to be the anchor. Past fulfilled prophecy demonstrates the inspiration of scripture, archaeology demonstrates its accuracy while the necessity of a Creator points to the eternal God described in the Bible, but the anchor of Christianity is the historical burial, death and bodily resurrection of Jesus. That is the foundation of our faith, and if new believers are grounded in that truth, then they will not drift away.

Seeing the various pieces of the prophetic puzzle fall into place in our day (just as the signs of Christ's 1st Coming) are intended to keep us in the loop (Amos 3:7), keep us in an attitude of anticipation (Luke 21:28) confirm our faith to unbelievers (John 14:29) and be a source of encouragement (2 Tim. 4:8).