Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Results 81 to 85 of 85

Thread: Martyrdom of Antipas

  1. #81
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.
    Hi One Bad Pig,
    Now that I've addressed it, would you please reply?

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.
    From my perspective, prophecy is a good evangelistic tool to demonstrate to unbelievers the divine inspiration and trustworthiness of the Bible. It also helps to be able to share with them that prophecies of the 2nd Coming are falling into place to give them that sense of urgency that the time is short and that it would be dangerous for them to put off a decision for Christ. Christ also encouraged us to be aware of the signs of His return when He said in Luke 21: "28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 He told them this parable: 'Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near." Doesn't this suggest that we can know when His return is near? The fig tree is a symbol of the nation of Israel, and after 1900 years of exile, it has once again - against incredible odds - become a nation.

    Paul also said in 1 Thess. 5: "4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober." Doesn't this suggest that we should be paying attention to the many signs of His 2nd Coming so we will not be taken by surprise?

    Because so many signs have either taken place or are currently taking shape, I believe we have more reason than any previous generation to expect the rapture to take place in our lifetime. It's an incentive to holy living, to share the gospel, and to be mindful of what is going on in the world. Amos 3:7 tells us, "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets." Why do you think God has provided so many prophecies of Christ's return? If He didn't want us to be aware of these things, why did He bother?

    I think this is another problem with the Preterist perspective. "There's no way of knowing when Christ will return because all the "signs" that were given applied to 70 A.D., so we will just soldier on as usual and what will happen will happen." I think the Lord gave us these signs for a purpose, not just to serve as "filler." I think He wants us to get excited.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 05-25-2019 at 11:05 AM.

  2. #82
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,364
    Amen (Given)
    6350
    Amen (Received)
    12117
    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Hi One Bad Pig,

    To the best of my knowledge, the "they" of Romans 11:28 must grammatically refer back to the nearest antecedent, which is Israel of verse 25 which has experienced a partial hardening but who will eventually be saved. You would have to skip over this in order to have "they" refer back further to the branches which were broken off in verse 19. And even if the "they" who are enemies applies to the broken branches, it would still refer to Israel "who are loved on account of the patriarchs." All Israel WILL BE saved because, as verse 29 states, "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." God's faithfulness to Israel is our guarantee of God's faithfulness to the church.

    Your understanding of Romans 11 here still makes no sense to me. If you don't mind, perhaps you can copy the relevant verses and insert the word "Church" where you feel it is the intended meaning so I can view the text as you see it.
    Well, let's step back a little, and note that "they" in Rom. 11:28 is not eve present in the Greek. Paul is using very condensed language here (as is not unusual for him). What we need to do is be careful not to let our desired interpretation here conflict with other scripture, which is replete (especially in the Tanakh) with examples where a faithful remnant is saved, and the rest perish. If you refer back to the scripture to which Paul alludes,
    Source: Is. 59:17-20 NKJV

    17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
    And was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. 19 So shall they fear The name of the Lord from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him. 20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the Lord.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Note the language regarding enemies and in particular the slightly different language of verse 20, and compare with what Paul is saying about enemies in Rom. 11:28.
    Source: Is 27:6-9 NKJV

    6 Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob; Israel shall blossom and bud, And fill the face of the world with fruit. 7 Has He struck Israel as He struck those who struck him? Or has He been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by Him? 8 In measure, by sending it away, You contended with it. He removes it by His rough wind In the day of the east wind. 9 Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered; And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: When he makes all the stones of the altar Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust, Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand.

    © Copyright Original Source



    When Paul's references are investigated, it becomes your position which is discovered to be untenable, not mine. It becomes clear that "all Israel" means "those who turn from transgression" (Is. 59:20) and those who "take root in Jacob" (Is. 27:6), not the enemies of Christ (though of course they also have opportunity to repent and be grafted in once again - Rom 11:23). Once your mistaken declarative interpretation of Rom. 11:26a is cleared up, note the much less absolute language subsequent to it: v. 31 "...they also may obtain mercy"; v. 32 "that he might have mercy on all."
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  3. #83
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,364
    Amen (Given)
    6350
    Amen (Received)
    12117
    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Hi One Bad Pig,
    Now that I've addressed it, would you please reply?



    From my perspective, prophecy is a good evangelistic tool to demonstrate to unbelievers the divine inspiration and trustworthiness of the Bible. It also helps to be able to share with them that prophecies of the 2nd Coming are falling into place to give them that sense of urgency that the time is short and that it would be dangerous for them to put off a decision for Christ. Christ also encouraged us to be aware of the signs of His return when He said in Luke 21: "28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 He told them this parable: 'Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near." Doesn't this suggest that we can know when His return is near? The fig tree is a symbol of the nation of Israel, and after 1900 years of exile, it has once again - against incredible odds - become a nation.

    Paul also said in 1 Thess. 5: "4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober." Doesn't this suggest that we should be paying attention to the many signs of His 2nd Coming so we will not be taken by surprise?

    Because so many signs have either taken place or are currently taking shape, I believe we have more reason than any previous generation to expect the rapture to take place in our lifetime. It's an incentive to holy living, to share the gospel, and to be mindful of what is going on in the world. Amos 3:7 tells us, "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets." Why do you think God has provided so many prophecies of Christ's return? If He didn't want us to be aware of these things, why did He bother?

    I think this is another problem with the Preterist perspective. "There's no way of knowing when Christ will return because all the "signs" that were given applied to 70 A.D., so we will just soldier on as usual and what will happen will happen." I think the Lord gave us these signs for a purpose, not just to serve as "filler." I think He wants us to get excited.
    Please note that the position I hold does not require the signs to only point to AD 70; double fulfillment is possible. You also flat ignored pretty much all I said about the very commonplace notion throughout church history which saw Christ's return just around the corner. All you're doing, just like those before you, is interpreting recent events to assert that Jesus' coming is really, really, soon, for really this time!!!!!

    1 Thes. 5 suggests to me that we should always try to be ready for His return, regardless of what is going on around us. I don't know why you seem to think you need to argue against that notion.

    In my opinion, end times fervor may be good to get people in the doors, but if that's their anchor, time goes by and the sense of urgency fades (because it's just not possible to keep that at a high level without burning out), and they drift away because what's been predicted isn't coming to pass. Now you've got apostates, worse off than they were in the first place.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  4. #84
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Well, let's step back a little, and note that "they" in Rom. 11:28 is not even present in the Greek...
    When Paul's references are investigated, it becomes your position which is discovered to be untenable, not mine. It becomes clear that "all Israel" means "those who turn from transgression" (Is. 59:20) and those who "take root in Jacob" (Is. 27:6), not the enemies of Christ (though of course they also have opportunity to repent and be grafted in once again - Rom 11:23). Once your mistaken declarative interpretation of Rom. 11:26a is cleared up, note the much less absolute language subsequent to it: v. 31 "...they also may obtain mercy"; v. 32 "that he might have mercy on all."
    Hi One Bad Pig,

    Granted that those who WILL BE saved in the future, (ie "all Israel") "means those who turn from transgression" and "who take root in Jacob," Paul is talking about Israel which was currently blinded ("blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."). These are the ones who are "beloved for the sake of the fathers, and who are presently - concerning the gospel - "enemies for your sake":

    28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    If "all Israel" who are "blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in" and who are "beloved for the sake of the Fathers" ARE NOT the "enemies" spoken of, then which enemy is Paul referring to?

  5. #85
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    36
    Amen (Given)
    25
    Amen (Received)
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Please note that the position I hold does not require the signs to only point to AD 70; double fulfillment is possible. You also flat ignored pretty much all I said about the very commonplace notion throughout church history which saw Christ's return just around the corner. All you're doing, just like those before you, is interpreting recent events to assert that Jesus' coming is really, really, soon, for really this time!!!!!

    1 Thes. 5 suggests to me that we should always try to be ready for His return, regardless of what is going on around us. I don't know why you seem to think you need to argue against that notion.

    In my opinion, end times fervor may be good to get people in the doors, but if that's their anchor, time goes by and the sense of urgency fades (because it's just not possible to keep that at a high level without burning out), and they drift away because what's been predicted isn't coming to pass. Now you've got apostates, worse off than they were in the first place.

    Hi One Bad Pig,

    I agree that a double fulfillment of certain signs pertaining to 70 AD is possible (more likely a necessity).

    I am not ignoring that the church throughout the centuries felt Christ's return was "just around the corner." The fact remains, however, that they were mistaken because they didn't understand that Israel had to become a nation again in order for Christ to return to rescue the nation. Only since 1948 did Christ's return become prophetically feasible.

    Neither am I arguing against 1 Thess. 5 that we should always be ready for His return. How do you think I am opposing this?

    Immanent fulfillment of prophecy is never meant to be the anchor. Past fulfilled prophecy demonstrates the inspiration of scripture, archaeology demonstrates its accuracy while the necessity of a Creator points to the eternal God described in the Bible, but the anchor of Christianity is the historical burial, death and bodily resurrection of Jesus. That is the foundation of our faith, and if new believers are grounded in that truth, then they will not drift away.

    Seeing the various pieces of the prophetic puzzle fall into place in our day (just as the signs of Christ's 1st Coming) are intended to keep us in the loop (Amos 3:7), keep us in an attitude of anticipation (Luke 21:28) confirm our faith to unbelievers (John 14:29) and be a source of encouragement (2 Tim. 4:8).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •