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Thread: Martyrdom of Antipas

  1. #31
    tWebber
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    Sources have been given attesting to his death in the 90's under Domitian. What are the sources for the claim that he died under Nero in the 60's? It makes no sense to toss our hands up in the air as if this is up for debate when there is actually no debate.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Sources have been given attesting to his death in the 90's under Domitian. What are the sources for the claim that he died under Nero in the 60's? It makes no sense to toss our hands up in the air as if this is up for debate when there is actually no debate.
    The problem is your "sources" is actually only one source, and that one source comes 800+ years after the fact.

  3. #33
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    The problem is your "sources" is actually only one source, and that one source comes 800+ years after the fact.
    The other problem is that he almost certainly thinks that 99% of what that source has written is fiction, since he is manifestly hostile to the cult of the saints. That one point supports his contention, however, so he'll run with it.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    The problem is your "sources" is actually only one source, and that one source comes 800+ years after the fact.
    Incorrect. I cited two other sources who clearly allude to the same tradition.

  5. #35
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Incorrect. I cited two other sources who clearly allude to the same tradition.
    Please post the exact quotes of what your other two sources said about Antipas, and where the quotes can be found. Just saying they mention him or reference him doesn't cut it.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Incorrect. I cited two other sources who clearly allude to the same tradition.
    Except they don't. The entirety of Andrew of Caesarea's commentary on Antipas (found in his commentary on Revelation) is "Antipas, whose name had become known as the bravest martyr in Pergamum, whose martyrdom I hâve read, the Evangelist now mentioned to point to both their patience and the cruelty of those who had been led astray." Andrew gives absolutely no details whatsoever that could be used to match it up with what Symeon writes.

    As for Tertullian, let's examine what you quoted from him:
    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    From Scorpiace, Chapter 12:
    Also to the angel of the church in Pergamus (mention was made) of Antipas, Revelation 2:13 the very faithful martyr, who was slain where Satan dwells. Also to the angel of the church in Philadelphia Revelation 3:10 (it was signified) that he who had not denied the name of the Lord was delivered from the last trial.


    It is said that Tertullian's allusion does not contain "independent information", but the claim that Antipas was "delivered from the last trial" indicates a clear knowledge of the circumstances cited by Metaphrastes, that Antipas was delivered from the pains of his execution (being roasted to death in a metal bull) so much that he was able to pray and give thanksgiving to the last, finally simply going to sleep...hardly the case if he were suffering from the unimaginable pain of such an execution!
    Your argument that Antipas being "delivered from the last trial" indicates clear knowledge of what Metaphrastes wrote about is already quite speculative and a stretch, but even that is ruined by the fact you're misreading what Tertullian wrote. The "delivered from the last trial" isn't even being used to refer to Antipas. It certainly wasn't in the original Revelation, as Revelation 3:10 is completely unrelated to the mention of Antipas. But even if we ignore the original context of Revelation, the fact Tertullian clearly switches which church he's referring to shows he's also not referring to Antipas with that "delivered from the last trial."

    This is made even more obvious if we examine the fuller context:
    John, in fact, exhorts us to lay down our lives even for our brethren, 1 John 3:16 affirming that there is no fear in love: For perfect love casts out fear, since fear has punishment; and he who fears is not perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 What fear would it be better to understand (as here meant), than that which gives rise to denial? What love does he assert to be perfect, but that which puts fear to flight, and gives courage to confess? What penalty will he appoint as the punishment of fear, but that which he who denies is about to pay, who has to be slain, body and soul, in hell? And if he teaches that we must die for the brethren, how much more for the Lord, — he being sufficiently prepared, by his own Revelation too, for giving such advice! For indeed the Spirit had sent the injunction to the angel of the church in Smyrna: Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life. Revelation 2:10 Also to the angel of the church in Pergamus (mention was made) of Antipas, Revelation 2:13 the very faithful martyr, who was slain where Satan dwells. Also to the angel of the church in Philadelphia Revelation 3:10 (it was signified) that he who had not denied the name of the Lord was delivered from the last trial. Then to every conqueror the Spirit promises now the tree of life, and exemption from the second death.

    Tertullian is simply rattling off examples of biblical passages that allude to his point, with the Antipas reference being clearly distinct from what comes immediately before and immediately afterwards. The "he who had not denied the name of the Lord was delivered from the last trial" is being used as a more general statement and is not a specific reference to Antipas.
    Last edited by Terraceth; 04-14-2019 at 08:47 PM.

  7. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  8. #37
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Except they don't. The entirety of Andrew of Caesarea's commentary on Antipas (found in his commentary on Revelation) is "Antipas, whose name had become known as the bravest martyr in Pergamum, whose martyrdom I hâve read, the Evangelist now mentioned to point to both their patience and the cruelty of those who had been led astray." Andrew gives absolutely no details whatsoever that could be used to match it up with what Symeon writes.

    As for Tertullian, let's examine what you quoted from him:

    Your argument that Antipas being "delivered from the last trial" indicates clear knowledge of what Metaphrastes wrote about is already quite speculative and a stretch, but even that is ruined by the fact you're misreading what Tertullian wrote. The "delivered from the last trial" isn't even being used to refer to Antipas. It certainly wasn't in the original Revelation, as Revelation 3:10 is completely unrelated to the mention of Antipas. But even if we ignore the original context of Revelation, the fact Tertullian clearly switches which church he's referring to shows he's also not referring to Antipas with that "delivered from the last trial."

    This is made even more obvious if we examine the fuller context:
    John, in fact, exhorts us to lay down our lives even for our brethren, 1 John 3:16 affirming that there is no fear in love: For perfect love casts out fear, since fear has punishment; and he who fears is not perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 What fear would it be better to understand (as here meant), than that which gives rise to denial? What love does he assert to be perfect, but that which puts fear to flight, and gives courage to confess? What penalty will he appoint as the punishment of fear, but that which he who denies is about to pay, who has to be slain, body and soul, in hell? And if he teaches that we must die for the brethren, how much more for the Lord, — he being sufficiently prepared, by his own Revelation too, for giving such advice! For indeed the Spirit had sent the injunction to the angel of the church in Smyrna: Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life. Revelation 2:10 Also to the angel of the church in Pergamus (mention was made) of Antipas, Revelation 2:13 the very faithful martyr, who was slain where Satan dwells. Also to the angel of the church in Philadelphia Revelation 3:10 (it was signified) that he who had not denied the name of the Lord was delivered from the last trial. Then to every conqueror the Spirit promises now the tree of life, and exemption from the second death.

    Tertullian is simply rattling off examples of biblical passages that allude to his point, with the Antipas reference being clearly distinct from what comes immediately before and immediately afterwards. The "he who had not denied the name of the Lord was delivered from the last trial" is being used as a more general statement and is not a specific reference to Antipas.
    Great info Terraceth! Looks to me like this is much to do about nothing...
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  9. #38
    41st Mojave Summer DesertBerean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    I told you to keep splitting hairs and you did, but maybe you were gunna keep doing that anyway. I'm "stuck" on the fact that Revelation obviously deals with future events, rather than being a book written for a small group of people for a specific time thousands of years ago. The delusion I'm concerned about is reality being altered around us, which granted probably doesn't matter to someone who claims to be a Christian while not getting "stuck" on why and when the Bible was written and knowing and doing what it says.
    Since you insist history is being distorted, I find your obsession with historical details strange since you have no proof they are being altered - what proof can YOU show of Antipas is not corrupt?

    But I will offer a couple of scriptures I was reminded of recently,

    2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    And

    Phil. 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

    Rather than focusing on something about a plot to trick and deceive believers... focus on the power of the power of Christ and his resurrection. Since even death could not hold Christ, pursue him and not speculation that leads away from such single minded worship and pursuit.

  10. Amen Chrawnus, Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  11. #39
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Revelation was written before 70 A.D., but there are still good arguments for why preterism is wrong. For example, Matthew 24 says that the angels with trumpets are unleashed AFTER Jerusalem falls. Preterism tries to somehow make the angels with trumpets all about the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Matthew 24:29-31

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    This timeline makes it clear that the destruction of Jerusalem lines up (roughly) with the sixth seal, and that all subsequent events in Revelation are talking about something other than the destruction of Jerusalem.

  12. #40
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Revelation was written before 70 A.D., but there are still good arguments for why preterism is wrong. For example, Matthew 24 says that the angels with trumpets are unleashed AFTER Jerusalem falls. Preterism tries to somehow make the angels with trumpets all about the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Matthew 24:29-31

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    This timeline makes it clear that the destruction of Jerusalem lines up (roughly) with the sixth seal, and that all subsequent events in Revelation are talking about something other than the destruction of Jerusalem.
    That doesn't show Partial Preterism wrong at all... The covenant wasn't just with Jerusalem, it was with the Nation of Israel. Jerusalem and the Temple (although huge events no doubt) weren't the only thing. God divorced Israel for her continued unfaithfulness.
    Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-17-2019 at 06:36 AM.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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