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Thread: Martyrdom of Antipas

  1. #11
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Yeah, I saw that too! I don't think both of those are possible...

    I think they might have meant he was mad a Saint during Domitians reign, (which would make more sense at least.)
    I'm more inclined to believe who ever edited the article just researched/looked for two different accounts/traditions and haphazardly cobbled them together without bothering to check if they were in harmony with each other.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    According to this website of the Orthodox Church, the date was +/- 68 AD hardly a death nail to Preterism.

    https://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/04...ciple-of-st-jo
    Hi Littlejoe,

    According to this guy, Alaharasan, V. Antony J. (2009). From Patmos to Paradise : John's vision of heaven. New York: Paulist Press. p. 40. ISBN 9780809145898, page 40:

    "Faced with the errors of Balaam, the heathen prophet of the Old Testament, and the Nicolations, who sought to undercut true faith, the Christians were asked to emulate the courageous, faithful witness of Antipas. According to Christian tradition, St. John ordained Antipas as bishop of Pergamum during the reign of the Roman emperor, Domitian. The traditional account reports that Antipas was martyred in 92 AD by burning in a brazen bull-shaped altar used for casting out demons by the local population."

    So he also agrees with Renner from the CBN link I shared.

    As Chrawus points out, Wikidedia is no help, having Antipas ordained after his own death.

    According to the Orthodox Church source you offered, he died in 68, but according to this Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America site (https://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints?contentid=15), Antipas died:

    "Saint Antipas was a contemporary of the holy Apostles, by whom he was made Bishop of Pergamum. He contested during the reign of Domitian, when he was cast, as it is said, into a bronze bull that had been heated exceedingly. The Evangelist John writes of him in the Book of Revelation, and says (as it were from the mouth of Christ, Who says to the Angel [that is, the Bishop] of the Church of Pergamum): "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is; and thou holdest fast My Name, and hast not denied My Faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful Martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth" (Rev. 2:13). The faithful pray to this Saint for ailments of the teeth."

    So who is right? My 3 sources or yours? The traditional date for the writing of the Revelation is around 95 A.D. (Says, Irenaeus: “For that [the apocalyptic vision] was seen not a very long time since, but almost in our own day, toward the end of Domitian’s reign” and Domitian’s reign occurred during the years of A.D 81-96. The church fathers Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus, Eusebius, and Jerome also affirm that Revelation was written during Domitian’s reign). The death of Antipas in 92 A.D. fits hand in glove with that estimate, but like most things, it appears there is always some room for doubt for those who need it.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 04-10-2019 at 01:39 PM.

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    The Orthodox are as opposed to futurism as the Catholics, because it undermines their power. They provided no evidence for a 60's AD date. And "ordination" (as a saint) didn't exist in the 1st century, so your special pleading is showing.

  4. #14
    42nd Mojave Year DesertBerean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    The Orthodox are as opposed to futurism as the Catholics, because it undermines their power. They provided no evidence for a 60's AD date. And "ordination" (as a saint) didn't exist in the 1st century, so your special pleading is showing.
    😳 I think you have some posts garbled together...ordination and sainthood are separate processes.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    😳 I think you have some posts garbled together...ordination and sainthood are separate processes.
    Nope, you can be ordained a saint, or a lawyer or a doctor or anything really. The point, which you didn't bother responding to, presumably because you couldn't, is that no one was being declared a saint in the 1st century, so the only ordination that could have been meant in the traditions was Antipas being made overseer of Pergamum by John. See if you can find any more hairs to split.

  6. #16
    42nd Mojave Year DesertBerean's Avatar
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    *.....aren't you the one who was going on and on about the Great Delusion having begun? ....*

  7. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    *.....aren't you the one who was going on and on about the Great Delusion having begun? ....*
    Haha, at least you follow orders well. Yes, I'm the one who warned you all of what is coming and what is already here. You're welcome.

  8. #18
    42nd Mojave Year DesertBerean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Haha, at least you follow orders well. Yes, I'm the one who warned you all of what is coming and what is already here. You're welcome.
    Dunno what you mean about following orders...but I find it rather interesting you are so stuck on the dates of this particular issue.

    But as I think about it, I recall that I didn't follow your entire thread about the delusion you were concerned about...

  9. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    Dunno what you mean about following orders...but I find it rather interesting you are so stuck on the dates of this particular issue.

    But as I think about it, I recall that I didn't follow your entire thread about the delusion you were concerned about...
    I told you to keep splitting hairs and you did, but maybe you were gunna keep doing that anyway. I'm "stuck" on the fact that Revelation obviously deals with future events, rather than being a book written for a small group of people for a specific time thousands of years ago. The delusion I'm concerned about is reality being altered around us, which granted probably doesn't matter to someone who claims to be a Christian while not getting "stuck" on why and when the Bible was written and knowing and doing what it says.

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    tWebber alaskazimm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Nope, you can be ordained a saint, or a lawyer or a doctor or anything really. The point, which you didn't bother responding to, presumably because you couldn't, is that no one was being declared a saint in the 1st century, so the only ordination that could have been meant in the traditions was Antipas being made overseer of Pergamum by John. See if you can find any more hairs to split.
    This is but a small sampling of verses calling believers saints - the first Acts 9:13 being from the very early years of the church; a Logos search pulls up over 50 more. It seems that quite a few times believers were declared saints in the 1st century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acts 9:13
    Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 15:25,26
    But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Corinthians 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

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