All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

[footwasher]

The Original View of Original Sin
Quote
But Augustine did not devise the concept of original sin. It was his use of specific New Testament scriptures to justify the doctrine that was new. The concept itself had been shaped from the late second century onward by certain church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian. Irenaeus did not use the Scriptures at all for his definition; Origen reinterpreted the Genesis account of Adam and Eve in terms of a Platonic allegory and saw sin deriving solely from free will; and Tertullian’s version was borrowed from Stoic philosophy.

Though Augustine was convinced by the arguments of his earlier patristic peers, he made use of the apostle Paul’s letters, especially the one to the Romans, to develop his own ideas on original sin and guilt. Today, however, it is accepted that Augustine, who had never mastered the Greek language, misread Paul in at least one instance by using an inadequate Latin translation of the Greek original.

http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227

You could refer to all the passages that flat-out say that baptism cleanses us of original sin.

[Jedidiah]

Jed is right. Spoken like a true apophatic.

Well almost. Except for what we get from revelation, and that is only a small part of what we can understand. God is much more than that.

[robrecht]

Well almost. ...

Jed is almost right.

[dacristoy]

You could refer to all the passages that flat-out say that baptism cleanses us of original sin.

Could you guide me to a few of them....

[dacristoy]

Worthy of destruction; is it stated in scripture, or just seemingly implied in scriptures used out of their immediate context?

[FarEastBird]

There is a short sightedness in this discussion. We are not given all knowledge (in spite of what FarEastBirt seems to think). We do not know why God created man the way he did. It was his pleasure to do so. We can never, even in glory, come close to understanding all about God. He is not super strong, super smart man. He is so far above us we can not even comprehend the distance.

You are completely misunderstanding me, Jed. I speak in terms of of what Christ said, that if we have the Holy Spirit, he will guide us into ALL truth; that is not about knowing ALL things. Only a crazy person would claim to know ALL things. You took the pleasure to make me a fool so you can excuse and glory of your ignorance. See, I'm sane enough to read your heart.

[FarEastBird]

Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

What makes us unworthy/evil speaks of our true nature. We are purely flesh (Gen 6:3). Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18) Regardless of human advancements, even today, we see that human nature is but self centered. Even Prof Dawkins, though he is championing naturalism, would not lie about the true nature of human nature. The bible itself tells us of true human nature:

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Eccl 3:18-20

We are dust by nature and does not differ to animals who have their morality in their flesh. Thus is the reason why our salvation should not be a work of our flesh, we ought not give glory to any man. Rather it is God himself who will work on us to will and to do of His good will (Phil 2:13). Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul also said, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:28-29)

[dacristoy]

What makes us unworthy/evil speaks of our true nature. We are purely flesh (Gen 6:3). Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18) Regardless of human advancements, even today, we see that human nature is but self centered. Even Prof Dawkins, though he is championing naturalism, would not lie about the true nature of human nature. The bible itself tells us of true human nature:

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Eccl 3:18-20

We are dust by nature and does not differ to animals who have their morality in their flesh. Thus is the reason why our salvation should not be a work of our flesh, we ought not give glory to any man. Rather it is God himself who will work on us to will and to do of His good will (Phil 2:13). Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul also said, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:28-29)

Nothing here do I disagree with, what I have a problem with is “the wisdom of men” trying to judge me as God has not.

Too often I see men trying to magnify God by degrading the works of his hands. God is not good because we are bah, he is good because he is good. Nothing that I can do makes him one iota more or less magnificent. Before I ever existed, he is God. And he has no need to be otherwise because of who or what I am,
I am who or what he says, none the better or none the worse. He says that I am “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalm 139:13-14 KJV

I choose to try and live up to that which God said, not down to what some man said. I am unconvinced by man’s intellectual prowess or his praise at the hands of men…

[FarEastBird]

Nothing here do I disagree with, what I have a problem with is “the wisdom of men” trying to judge me as God has not.

Too often I see men trying to magnify God by degrading the works of his hands. God is not good because we are bah, he is good because he is good. Nothing that I can do makes him one iota more or less magnificent. Before I ever existed, he is God. And he has no need to be otherwise because of who or what I am,
I am who or what he says, none the better or none the worse. He says that I am “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. Psalm 139:13-14 KJV

I choose to try and live up to that which God said, not down to what some man said. I am unconvinced by man’s intellectual prowess or his praise at the hands of men…

It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself.

The spirit that I follow is the word of God, of which this spirit refers to God's plans in our Lord Jesus Christ. As I come to understand the word of God, and witness to happen to unfold in my life, that is my trust that I am in the spirit. But knowledge does not prove me of being in the spirit, but of being part of what is being unfolded of the word of God. There are prohesies given to us regarding the elect of God, as I see them unfold to me, is where I trust that God is working in me. Not just hoping, but truly knowing that God is with me

In truth and sincerity, it will be hard for anyone to distinguish who amongst us are speaking the truth of the word of God. The prophesies will give us the signs who, amongst us, are of God (Deut 18:20-22, 1Cor 14:22, 24)).

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cor 14:4-5

[dacristoy]

It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself.The spirit that I follow is the word of God, of which this spirit refers to God's plans in our Lord Jesus Christ. As I come to understand the word of God, and witness to happen to unfold in my life, that is my trust that I am in the spirit. But knowledge does not prove me of being in the spirit, but of being part of what is being unfolded of the word of God. There are prohesies given to us regarding the elect of God, as I see them unfold to me, is where I trust that God is working in me. Not just hoping, but truly knowing that God is with me

In truth and sincerity, it will be hard for anyone to distinguish who amongst us are speaking the truth of the word of God. The prophesies will give us the signs who, amongst us, are of God (Deut 18:20-22, 1Cor 14:22, 24)).

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cor 14:4-5

Aaaah, er, you are not in the flesh...

[FarEastBird]

Aaaah, er, you are not in the flesh...

Indeed, I am not. I am not trusting in myself, but of God, who I see, is working in me. I have a sort of an assurance that God is working in me. As I explained, we, as flesh, are doomed to be selfish, and evil. But hence I see that God is working in me, then I am no more in the flesh, but rather that God is working in me. Paul said, "... it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Note also the verses I quoted before.

The difference between you and me is that you do not know what God is doing to you, thus you rest on "your" trust, and you hope. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do but hope and trust in your own strength. Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail. Such is the sad nature of man, (including myself, of course), unless God will change us, and control our lives, we cannot escape such sad nature.

[dacristoy]

Indeed, I am not. I am not trusting in myself, but of God, who I see, is working in me. I have a sort of an assurance that God is working in me. As I explained, we, as flesh, are doomed to be selfish, and evil. But hence I see that God is working in me, then I am no more in the flesh, but rather that God is working in me. Paul said, "... it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Note also the verses I quoted before.

The difference between you and me is that you do not know what God is doing to you, thus you rest on "your" trust, and you hope. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do but hope and trust in your own strength. Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail. Such is the sad nature of man, (including myself, of course), unless God will change us, and control our lives, we cannot escape such sad nature.

I also see him working in me, and by what authority do you set yourself up to call me deceitful. When did God set you up to be my judge, jury, as well as executioner...
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail". When did you cease being a man. Unless you're virgin born, you need a lot of prayer...

[FarEastBird]

I also see him working in me, and by what authority do you set yourself up to call me deceitful. When did God set you up to be my judge, jury, as well as executioner...
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail". When did you cease being a man. Unless you're virgin born, you need a lot of prayer...

I clearly included myself as a man; I do not know why you took a blind eye on that part I wrote. It simply shows that you are not being fair in reading my post.

[dacristoy]

I clearly included myself as a man; I do not know why you took a blind eye on that part I wrote. It simply shows that you are not being fair in reading my post.

The clear inclusion of yourself as a man should have incorporated the word "We" in your response.

"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail", The word "you" should have ben replaced with the word "we". Your post appears to be a tad high strung to me, I will try to reevaluate and be more fair if I have been unfair...

[FarEastBird]

The clear inclusion of yourself as a man should have incorporated the word "We" in your response.

"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail", The word "you" should have been replaced with the word "we".

I was pointing to you the problem of when a person lack the knowledge, and thus poised only to have trust. There is no better example I can use except yourself. Nevertheless, as I concluded in the last sentence of my post, I am in no wise different with you as a man.

My point was to give a good contrast of the difference between a person who knows that God is working in him, to a person who simply trust. And with those talk, I am leading you to understand clearly what it meant to be not under the flesh.

There is no way for a person who has no direct knowledge that God is working in him but to trust in his own self. And the only way we can escape such sad estate is that God would work on us. If I, myself, had attained anything because that I trusted, then I myself gained through my flesh. If so, I will be contradicting myself when I claim I am not under the flesh.