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The death of Jesus at the hands of the Romans

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    Muslims believe their Allah is the one true God, God Almighty. The one true God is all knowing which means He knows what will happen before it happens.

    The Qur'an says that Jesus was "just a messenger" and a prophet.

    Muslims believe that Allah saved Jesus from death.

    God did not save other prophets from death including Muhammad.

    So according to Islam a look-a-like was on the cross instead of Jesus.

    Muslims believe that God saved Jesus from death.

    So, this all-knowing God knew that this look-a-like would fool Jesus' disciples and Jesus' mother and all Christians from then on.

    This look-a-like started the largest faith in the world and God let it happen.

    This means that God by not preventing it from happening caused the results of this deception.

    If Christianity had not begun, the persecutions of Christians would never have happened.

    The persecution of Christians is the religious persecution that Christians have endured as a consequence of professing their faith, both historically and in the current era. In the two thousand years of the Christian faith, about 70 million believers, of whom 45.5 million or 65% lived in the twentieth century, have been killed for their faith. (From Wikipedia)

    The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero himself was suspected as the arsonist by Suetonius, claiming he played the lyre and sang the 'Sack of Ilium' during the fires. In his Annals, Tacitus (who claimed Nero was in Antium at the time of the fire's outbreak), stated that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians]] by the populace." Suetonius, later to the period, does not mention any persecution after the fire, but in an previous paragraph unrelated to the fire, mentions punishments inflicted on Christians, defined as men following a new and malefic superstition. Suetonius however does not specify the reasons for the punishment, he just listed the fact together with other abuses put down by Nero. (From Wikipedia)

    No Christianity, no Christian Crusades, no Christian persecutions; hence, all who died during those terrible times and still are dying by the hands of Muslims were also the result of Allah’s Deception.

    God is responsible for the deaths and persecution of countless of millions of people.
    Is all of that Islamic belief, or is some of it your opinion?


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      Muslims believe their Allah is the one true God, God Almighty. The one true God is all knowing which means He knows what will happen before it happens.

      The Qur'an says that Jesus was "just a messenger" and a prophet.

      Muslims believe that Allah saved Jesus from death.

      God did not save other prophets from death including Muhammad.

      So according to Islam a look-a-like was on the cross instead of Jesus.

      Muslims believe that God saved Jesus from death.

      So, this all-knowing God knew that this look-a-like would fool Jesus' disciples and Jesus' mother and all Christians from then on.

      This look-a-like started the largest faith in the world and God let it happen.

      This means that God by not preventing it from happening caused the results of this deception.

      If Christianity had not begun, the persecutions of Christians would never have happened.

      The persecution of Christians is the religious persecution that Christians have endured as a consequence of professing their faith, both historically and in the current era. In the two thousand years of the Christian faith, about 70 million believers, of whom 45.5 million or 65% lived in the twentieth century, have been killed for their faith. (From Wikipedia)

      The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero himself was suspected as the arsonist by Suetonius, claiming he played the lyre and sang the 'Sack of Ilium' during the fires. In his Annals, Tacitus (who claimed Nero was in Antium at the time of the fire's outbreak), stated that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians]] by the populace." Suetonius, later to the period, does not mention any persecution after the fire, but in an previous paragraph unrelated to the fire, mentions punishments inflicted on Christians, defined as men following a new and malefic superstition. Suetonius however does not specify the reasons for the punishment, he just listed the fact together with other abuses put down by Nero. (From Wikipedia)

      No Christianity, no Christian Crusades, no Christian persecutions; hence, all who died during those terrible times and still are dying by the hands of Muslims were also the result of Allah’s Deception.

      God is responsible for the deaths and persecution of countless of millions of people.

      The only thing that makes sense in this description is saying that if Christianity didn't exist, then Christians wouldn't be dying. If there are no Hobbits, then no Hobbits would be dying.

      The oddest thing is to say that the fake-identity who died on the cross is the one who started Christianity. If that guy died, why didn't the true Jesus start Christianity?

      Now the Muslims want to blame God for causing the deaths that are being done by the hand of Muslims. It would seem better if Muslims said they themselves should stop killing Christians.

      If you have stated a generic Muslim belief here, there is simply no cohesion to it.

      Next, the point about not saving Muhammad but having saved Jesus ... this seems backwards. There seems to be an excuse why Muhammad wasn't also raised from the dead. So, if Jesus didn't really die, then Jesus isn't greater than Muhammad. (There certainly is the premise that God would only raise the better prophet. So Jesus couldn't have been raised from the dead.) Such belief system requires a lot of conjecture and re-arranging of ideas just to come to the desired conclusion.

      It is near to impossible finding any cohesion in this theory.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
        The Jewish leaders were absolutely pulling the strings. Even Pilate wanted to let him go, but didn't dare stand up to them. If it weren't for the Jews, the Romans wou't have killed him, but also if it wasn't for the Jews he wouldn't have even been there in the first place.
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Yeah, you and I know that [—] this "documentary[,]" however, insisted that we have a very twisted view of Pilate and who he was, and sounds downright conspiratorial in "the Early Christians were blaming the Jews" because the early Christians were downright antisemitic.
        Such an understanding of the portrayal of Pontus Pilate and the Jews’ involvement in the death of the Lord Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline corpus (see esp. 1 Thess. 2.14–16*) is a rather standard-fare reading by persons who regard the New Testament documents as little more than Early Church propaganda. (I would likely take this stance as well if I were a naturalist, non-believer, and/or did not believe Jesus of Nazareth to be the Christ.)


        * 1 Thessalonians 2.14–16 (ESV):
        14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          At festivals, the population of Jerusalem would swell to as much as 10 time normal
          For a split second I read this sentence as "At festivals, the population would smell 10 times as much as normal".

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Is all of that Islamic belief, or is some of it your opinion?
            This is what Islam teaches:

            The Qur'an says that Jesus was "just a messenger" and a prophet.

            Muslims believe that Allah saved Jesus from death.

            God did not save other prophets from death including Muhammad.

            So according to Islam a look-a-like was on the cross instead of Jesus.

            From a Muslim:

            – “The phrase ‘was made to appear so unto them’ means someone was crucified and killed on the cross and Quran 4:157 is simply telling you that ‘someone’ is NOTJesus Christ.

            Here are the interpretations of Surah 4:157:

            https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/157/default.htm

            Clips:

            Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar and for their saying: We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God. And they killed him not, nor they crucified him. Rather, a likeness to him of another was shown to them. And, truly, those who were at variance in it are in uncertainty about it. There is no knowledge with them about it but they are pursuing an opinion. And they for certain killed him not.

            Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali And for their saying, "Surely we killed the Masih, Isa son of Maryam, (The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary) the Messenger of Allah." And in no way did they kill him, and in no way did they crucify him, but a resemblance of him was presented to them (i.e. the matter was made obscure for them through mutual resemblance). And surely the ones who differed about him are indeed in doubt about him. (Or: it, "that") In no way do they have any knowledge about him except the close following of surmise, and in no way did they kill him of a certainty.

            From a Muslim:

            I think Christians are desperate to get Muslims to believe Jesus was crucified, killed and rose again because that will strengthen their own faith. After all, the entire Christianity faith just lie on this belief – Jesus died and rose from the dead, and if they don’t believe this, then Christianity is no more. I mean, come on, any faith whose survival just hangs on a belief that a man must die (for their sins) and this man must rise from the dead, cannot be the true preaching of that faith, but, it's a man-made preaching of that faith.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              The only thing that makes sense in this description is saying that if Christianity didn't exist, then Christians wouldn't be dying. If there are no Hobbits, then no Hobbits would be dying.

              The oddest thing is to say that the fake-identity who died on the cross is the one who started Christianity. If that guy died, why didn't the true Jesus start Christianity?

              Now the Muslims want to blame God for causing the deaths that are being done by the hand of Muslims. It would seem better if Muslims said they themselves should stop killing Christians.

              If you have stated a generic Muslim belief here, there is simply no cohesion to it.

              Next, the point about not saving Muhammad but having saved Jesus ... this seems backwards. There seems to be an excuse why Muhammad wasn't also raised from the dead. So, if Jesus didn't really die, then Jesus isn't greater than Muhammad. (There certainly is the premise that God would only raise the better prophet. So Jesus couldn't have been raised from the dead.) Such belief system requires a lot of conjecture and re-arranging of ideas just to come to the desired conclusion.

              It is near to impossible finding any cohesion in this theory.
              According to Islam, Jesus was translated into heaven without dying.

              Surah 158:
              Literal
              (Word by Word) Nay, Allah raised him towards Him. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

              In my opinion this look-a-like accomplished nothing because Jesus' followers believed this look-a-like WAS Jesus.

              "Now the Muslims want to blame God for causing the deaths that are being done by the hand of Muslims. It would seem better if Muslims said they themselves should stop killing Christians."

              That was my opinion.

              The Ahmadi Muslims who are considered heretics by mainstream Islam believe Jesus was crucified but survived. Jesus was given an ointment that cured His wounds; He went to India; lived to be 120 years old; died and was buried in Kashmir.
              Last edited by Christian3; 04-11-2019, 05:49 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                For a split second I read this sentence as "At festivals, the population would smell 10 times as much as normal".

                I expect that was also likely the case.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  This reminds me of the passage saying that Pharaoh was created to reveal God's power and glory, which was accomplished through his stubborn refusal to free the Israelites and the subsequent plagues and the destruction of the Egyptian army. People say, "But what about Pharaoh's freewill?" to which I say that God's power and glory could have just as well been revealed through the Pharaoh denouncing his idols and bending his knee to Yahweh.

                  The point is that God's purpose is never thwarted by human agency. If the Romans hadn't killed Jesus then the Jewish leaders would have probably taken it upon themselves, or if not the Jews then another group entirely. I think the only thing certain is that Jesus had to die in some fashion since that was the plan that God set in motion and was prophesied way back in the Garden of Eden and throughout the Old Testament.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    People don't get that Jesus would have died exactly as He did because GOD was orchestrating everything.

                    It is impossible to even consider "what if" in this or any other situation regarding Christ because the sovereignty of God was in place every moment of His life, and, in fact, before time began.
                    Does the Sovereignty of God require that Christ “could have” died only as He did, though ? The Sovereignty of God expressed through Divine Providence rules *all* contingencies - not just those that are realised.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                      Does the Sovereignty of God require that Christ “could have” died only as He did, though ? The Sovereignty of God expressed through Divine Providence rules *all* contingencies - not just those that are realised.
                      He had to die as He did to fulfill prophecy.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                        Such an understanding of the portrayal of Pontus Pilate [sic] and the Jews’ involvement in the death of the Lord Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline corpus (see esp. 1 Thess. 2.14–16*) is a rather standard-fare reading by persons who regard the New Testament documents as little more than Early Church propaganda. (I would likely take this stance as well if I were a naturalist, non-believer, and/or did not believe Jesus of Nazareth to be the Christ.)
                        Correction: Pontius Pilate.
                        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                        Comment

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