There Was Spying On The Trump Campaign

[Cow Poke]

I think people are confusing "investigate" with "spying" -- they are not the same thing. Spying indicates secretly watching and listening without a warrant. Or secretly placing spies into the campaign without knowledge of Trump. Investigating indicates checking openly, questioning, researching, all above board and legally.

We know Trump was investigated: Mueller led it. Spying is something else entirely.

And spying on US citizens, no matter how much they are hated, has Constitutional limitations.

[Cow Poke]

And while there were false testimonies that does not imply that there were not good reasons not based on false testimonies.

I'm still laughing at this one.

District Attorney to Police Officer - "you flat out lied to get the warrant and withheld exculpatory information, so unless you have a firm basis for probable cause, the accused WALKS!"
Police officer to District Attorney - "but sir, just because I lied to get a warrant and withheld exculpatory information doesn't mean there's not OTHER stuff on which to base an investigation!"

District Attorney to Police Officer - "then go find me some "OTHER stuff", and until you do, the accused WALKS!"


That's how it happens in real life.

[seer]

I think people are confusing "investigate" with "spying" -- they are not the same thing. Spying indicates secretly watching and listening without a warrant. Or secretly placing spies into the campaign without knowledge of Trump. Investigating indicates checking openly, questioning, researching, all above board and legally.

We know Trump was investigated: Mueller led it. Spying is something else entirely.

Well if the warrants were acquired on false premises then it is kind of like spying...

[Cow Poke]

Well if the warrants were acquired on false premises then it is kind of like spying...

As I just posted, if the warrants were acquired on false premises, the "fruit" of those warrants should not be allowed to be produced. That's the way it works in the real world*.



*Constitutionally protected process on US citizens - not spying on enemies

[Mountain Man]

Quite many investigations show that the person is innocent or that there is not a sufficient amount of evidence. That does not imply that it was wrong to investigate in the first place. You don't know the result before you investigate.

It doesn't work that way. If the police violate someone's right to due process, even inadvertently, then any evidence discovered is tossed out.

Worse is when the investigators or other people higher up the chain of command know the premise for the investigation is false.

[Cow Poke]

It doesn't work that way. If the police violate someone's right to due process, even inadvertently, then any evidence discovered is tossed out.

Worse is when the investigators or other people higher up the chain of command know the premise for the investigation is false.

It's further compounded by the police "knowing something" that they otherwise would now know, and it's pretty hard to come up with a way to "know" it that is totally independent of the disallowed method.

But, yes, to your point, if supervisors knew of the situation, and didn't shut it down, they are complicit in the "poison fruit" as well, but are (or should be) held to an even higher standard.

[Mountain Man]

It's further compounded by the police "knowing something" that they otherwise would now know, and it's pretty hard to come up with a way to "know" it that is totally independent of the disallowed method.

How about leaking details of the phony "dossier" to the press, and then using reports based on those leaks as independent corroboration to justify a warrant?

[Cow Poke]

How about leaking details of the phony "dossier" to the press, and then using reports based on those leaks as independent corroboration to justify a warrant?

If the Republicans had done this to the Democrats, they'd be squealing like stuck pigs. The Republicans are a bunch of wimpy whiny....

[oxmixmudd]

Ok Jim, have it you way. But I think we all agree that if the intelligence agencies did anything illegal then heads should roll...

Yes - if the warrants allowing whatever activities were engaged in were not legally obtained, that is an issue and those that exceeded their authority should be held accountable. The authorities can not act without just cause. That is just as important a principle as not populating key apolitical positions with one's lackeys and minions.

However, it is a major problem when one or both sides lose complete site of the importance of impartiality and principle. I know most posting here would like to think there is only one side doing that. But that simply is self-deception. And excusing it for 'my side' is deadly to this republic. I hope those of you offended by this spying can find a way to recognize that excusing these lapses of principle by Trump when it comes to firing everyone that dares to cite the law or the constitution over what he wants that day is no less dangerous that whatever it is you are concerned about as regards the topic of this thread.



Jim

[Mountain Man]

I hope those of you offended by this spying can find a way to recognize that excusing these lapses of principle by Trump when it comes to firing everyone that dares to cite the law or the constitution over what he wants that day is no less dangerous that whatever it is you are concerned about as regards the topic of this thread.

You think there is a moral equivalence between a president legally firing someone, and members of the intelligence community conspiring with the presidential administration to illegally spy on a candidate in the opposing party and start a counter intelligence operation under false pretenses?

Seriously?

[Cow Poke]

... I know most posting here would like to think there is only one side doing that....

I think both sides have lost sight of "what's best for America", and are playing to "what's best for MY party". That's why I'm totally fed up with BOTH sides.

[oxmixmudd]

I think both sides have lost sight of "what's best for America", and are playing to "what's best for MY party". That's why I'm totally fed up with BOTH sides.

Im pretty sure that is what I just said ..

[Cow Poke]

Im pretty sure that is what I just said ..

You know, Jim, you can really be grumpy old fart, you know that?

You had said

I know most posting here would like to think there is only one side doing that. But that simply is self-deception.

And I was politely objecting to that, as I think BOTH sides stink.

[JimL]

This is going to get interesting...

WASHINGTON, April 10 (Reuters) - Attorney General William Barr said on Wednesday U.S. intelligence agencies engaged in spying directed at the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump and that he would look at whether the surveillance was undertaken legally.

"I think spying did occur," Barr told a Senate hearing. "But the question is whether it was adequately predicated and I am not suggesting that it wasn't adequately predicated. ... I am not suggesting those rules were violated, but I think it is important to look at that. And I am not talking about the FBI necessarily, but intelligence agencies more broadly.

"I think spying on a political campaign is a big deal - it's a big deal."

http://news.trust.org/item/20190410144125-laelo

Yeah, the FISA judges were corrupt as well, right. You people are making yourselves look more naive each day. So easily led. No wonder we have a president Trump!

[JimL]

You know, Jim, you can really be grumpy old fart, you know that?

You had said And I was politely objecting to that, as I think BOTH sides stink.

Right, and we can see your objectivity in your postings, CP. "fed up with both sides"