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Thread: The Debate Is Up!

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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    The Debate Is Up!

    The debate is up for all who want to hear.

    http://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/?p=11801

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Notes: You seemed a bit nervous in your opening and were speaking a bit too fast, trying to get everything in, and it was clear you were just reading a prepared statement. Dan seemed more relaxed and spoke to the audience. It was easier to follow his arguments. I had a hard time following yours because you spoke so fast and seemed to try to cover too much ground.

    But, in your reply, you were more relaxed and did a terrific job as you spoke to the audience instead of just reading. Your answers were great. You do well engaging with the audience.

    Dan's opening and his reply were just full of stereotypical atheist arguments that we have all heard ad nauseum. He didn't seem to bring up anything significant or new. His arguments about logic were simplistic and irrelevant. Like his argument about God being simple means he can't think. derp. Two plus two equal four not existing when the dinosaurs... -- his argument about God being "bad" - how can there be "bad" or "evil" to complain about if there is no objective morality? He also talked a lot about his books. Shades of John Loftus! And finally, his repeating that he doesn't need to provide any evidence and trying to put all of the burden on you. Then he shouldn't be debating anyone.

    I am listening the the Q&A now...

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Nick affirmed the Virgin Birth!!!

  5. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Nick affirmed the Virgin Birth!!!
    I haven't even gotten to the 20 minute mark yet. I would appreciate it if you didn't spoil the plot for me, thank you very much.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I haven't even gotten to the 20 minute mark yet. I would appreciate it if you didn't spoil the plot for me, thank you very much.
    I am at the closing!

    Nick's closing is awesome!!!!!!

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    [CP Grammar nazi mode] You pronounced nihilism as KNEE-i-lism!! It's NIGH-a-lism. [/cp mode off]

  9. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #8
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Dan's closing. Not convincing. He argues the value of life increases because there is no God. Uh, no. It means nothing matters. Nothing is special. We are just dust in the wind.

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    I'm at Barker's opening statement right now. I don't have much to say about your opening statements, other than to agree with what Sparko wrote.

    "Why not just reveal Himself to me directly?"

    He can do that, through the Holy Spirit, as long as you don't close yourself off from Him (and in some cases you could argue that He does it even if you close yourself off from him, cf. Paul's conversion). Not really an argument meant to convince others though, more like reassurance for the Christians who need it.


    "Nobody knows if God exists. Nick doesn't know it. If he does, then I would know it too."

    The usual atheistic arrogant ignorance on display, like usual. There is nothing about logic and reason that says people cannot have justifiable reasons to believe, or even know, that certain propositions are true, even if those reasons can't be shared with others. The witness of the Holy Spirit being one such reason, for example.

    "Theism is not knowledge, it is faith"



    "The Bible even says in Hebrews 11:6: 'He who comes to God must believe that he exists' "



    Then he follows with the usual claptrap about atheism being a lack of belief and how the burden of proof lies on the theist...


    For a textbook example of "assuming the conclusion" (in this case the truth of his own scientism) look no further than Barker's remark starting at 23:42 "Then there's a lack of a good evidence for God..." where he pretty much excludes any evidence apart from empirical as acceptable.

    Then he talks about Nick's arguments begging the question when not even a minute ago he was doing the very same thing he's accusing Nick of doing.

    Also, the God of the gaps argument? I mean, it is Dan Barker, so it's not surprising, but really?


    I'm pretty sure Paul's statement about there not being division among Christians is a command, exhortation, or a wish (or some combination of the three), not a prediction, or assurance that there won't be divisions in Christianity. Barker might be a former preacher, but you would never come to that conclusion by yourself just by listening to his understanding of what the Bible says.


    "Paul also said 'God is not the author of confusion', but can you think of a single book that has caused more confusion than the bible?"

    The cause of that confusion would be the sinful desires, inclinations and darkened understanding of man, not God.


    "All you have to do, is walk into any children's hospital, and you know that a good god does not exist."

    Appealing to emotions, as usual when it comes to atheists and the problem of evil. Of course, since that's all they have on that issue.


    He also propagated the common (and quite dishonest) idea among atheists that Christians apologists/philosophers are arguing that people who don't believe in God cannot do good.

    27:20 and onwards is another demonstration of Barker assuming the truth of his worldview. ("Look how many supernatural events and miracles are recorded in the bible. Surely you can't believe in something like that? )


    "God confessed, he tortured a good man and killed his children, for no reason."

    Except that's not what the text says at all. God is saying that satan had no reason to incite God against Job, he's not saying that God didn't have a reason for listening to satan. Another demonstration of Barker's lack of qualifications when it comes to his former vocation as a preacher. He can't even manage basic reading comprehension.

    ----

    I have nothing really to comment about your first reply, other than that I agree with Sparko that you did a much better job than with your opening statement, probably because you were not slavishly reading from a prepared statement.

    The only thing I'm wondering about is your comment that Job never lost his children in the first place. I would be interested in knowing more about this reading/interpretation of the passage, because the natural reading of most English (and Swedish) translations of the passage makes it seem like he was given other sons and daughters to replace the ones he had lost, not that he was given back his old children.

    ----

    Just finished watching the Q&A section as I'm writing this. You did a fine job answering the questions directed at you. It's a shame you weren't given the opportunity to address more of the wrong ideas, misconceptions and misreadings of scripture that Barker brought up however, because I think a lot of people in the audience would have benefited from seeing how they can (and ought to be) be interpreted in a way that respects and takes the sociocultural and historical background of the New (and Old) Testament into account.

    ----

    Skipping Nick's closing statement, because there's not really much that I feel the need to comment about there.

    ----

    "...You see something in the bible you don't like? Well, just say 'hyperbole', or just say 'metaphor', and 'voila!' it goes away..."

    When Barker lost his faith in God and Jesus as his saviour he obviously needed a replacement, and it seems like he decided to nail common sense, intelligence and well-researched scholarship on the cross of wooden literalism.


    "...Then we are captives, to people like Nick, who are going to tell us 'what it really means'..."


    I suppose "having to do some hard thinking" is one of the personal sufferings Barker feels point to the non-existence of God. Also, seems to me like he's basically saying "Don't bother reading scholarship and research about a collection of books written close to 2000 years ago in a completely different socio-cultural and historical background from your own! There's no way what so ever any misunderstandings could arise from that kind of thinking! Trust me, the person who fails basic reading comprehension, on this matter, there's no way I could lead you wrong!"
    Last edited by Chrawnus; 04-11-2019 at 11:00 AM.

  12. #10
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Chrawnus. When I say Job didn't lose his children, I mean that they are still there and he will see them in the resurrection. He did not get twenty kids in the end. He got ten more. Ten + ten.

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