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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Turning from sin and conversion

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  • #61
    Understand.jpg
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment

    • #62
      Here is one quote:

      Christ IS Lord, but perhaps not THEIR Lord in the practical sense.
      Here is someone's response to the above quote:
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      This is completely wrong. Sinning against a government doesn't stop it from being your government. If that were true, there would be no prisons.
      I think the phrase "but perhaps not THEIR Lord in the practical sense" means that they do not submit to God's authority.

      Comment

      • #63
        That is like some liberal snowflake saying about Trump, "He's not my president." Yes, in fact he is your president. No where else except in legalistic Christianity does anyone claim that disobeying an authority precludes you from being under that authority.

        Comment

        • #64
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          That was my point. If Christ is not the person's lord, the confession is false - even if the person doing the not confessing believes that Christ is his Lord.
          And of course, if Christ DID say that works are necessary - saying that works are not necessary is a claim that Christ lied (based on the presupposition that the person believes that Christ could not have made a mistake.) It is not possible to confess to something without that confession being true.
          Do you believe that a person's works are a consequence of being born again or the means by which justification is received?

          Comment

          • #65
            Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
            14 πως ουν επικαλεσονται εις ον ουκ επιστευσαν
            How - then - they will call - on - whom - not - they will believe (there is no "in" with "whom they do not believe")
            How will/can they call on whom they do not (yet) believe? (future for both verbs - "call" and "believe" ...)

            It can't be done - only those who believe Christ can call on him.

            Originally posted by Hornet View Post
            Do you believe that a person's works are a consequence of being born again or the means by which justification is received?
            Romans 10:10 isn't the only verse that says "justification is by faith" - and Paul cites Habakkuk 2:4 "the just shall live by faith." Note that English (Habakkuk) translations show the Lord saying "the just shall live by his faith" where the Septuagint shows the Lord saying "the just shall live by my faith."

            So - faith gives rise to justification

            faith does not give rise (by itself) to salvation. Not even a single statement linking faith with salvation fails to have faith + something else involved.
            As for "faith alone" - the sole occurrence in the Bible of that pairing states explicitly that we are NOT saved by faith alone.
            Last edited by tabibito; 04-17-2019, 01:03 PM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment

            • #66
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              This is completely wrong.
              No, it's not.

              Sinning against a government doesn't stop it from being your government. If that were true, there would be no prisons.
              You seem to have an obsession with taking things the most uncharitable way possible. I said "in a practical sense" for a reason.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment

              • #67
                Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                Here is one quote:



                Here is someone's response to the above quote:


                I think the phrase "but perhaps not THEIR Lord in the practical sense" means that they do not submit to God's authority.
                Unless, of course, you wanted to take that in the most uncharitable way possible!
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment

                • #68
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke
                  You seem to have an obsession with taking things the most uncharitable way possible. I said "in a practical sense" for a reason.
                  You simply shouldn't entertain concepts that are false. Tabibito is teaching that you become saved by doing good, which makes Jesus your lord in a practical sense. In reality, whether you obey or disobey a government has no effect on whether it is in fact your government — in a practical sense, or in any other sense. The only things that control whether a person is your lord is whether he has jurisdiction over you, and whether he has the power to enforce that jurisdiction. If you believe on Christ, then absolutely he has both. Your obedience has nothing to do with the equation.

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    You simply shouldn't entertain concepts that are false.
                    I don't.

                    Tabibito is teaching that you become saved by doing good,
                    And we clearly are not.

                    which makes Jesus your lord in a practical sense.
                    Nope.

                    In reality, whether you obey or disobey a government has no effect on whether it is in fact your government — in a practical sense, or in any other sense.
                    To somebody who's being incredibly pedantic.

                    The only things that control whether a person is your lord is whether he has jurisdiction over you, and whether he has the power to enforce that jurisdiction.
                    If that person doesn't exercise that jurisdiction, whether he has the power to or not, he is not, in any practical sense, your lord.

                    If you believe on Christ, then absolutely he has both. Your obedience has nothing to do with the equation.
                    I'm thinking this is yet another case of you being right no matter what, and not interested at all in discussing it.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35 but
                      welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

                      Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does
                      the will of My Father in heaven
                      Last edited by tabibito; 04-17-2019, 01:18 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke
                        If that person doesn't exercise that jurisdiction, whether he has the power to or not, he is not, in any practical sense, your lord.
                        Jesus will indeed exercise his jurisdiction, so that is a non-issue.

                        I'm thinking this is yet another case of you being right no matter what, and not interested at all in discussing it.
                        I'm thinking this is a case of your just not liking me.

                        Comment

                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          Jesus will indeed exercise his jurisdiction, so that is a non-issue.
                          Will, yes, and then that will be a major.

                          I'm thinking this is a case of your just not liking me.
                          I like you just enough to get to heaven.



                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment

                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I don't.



                            And we clearly are not.



                            Nope.



                            To somebody who's being incredibly pedantic.



                            If that person doesn't exercise that jurisdiction, whether he has the power to or not, he is not, in any practical sense, your lord.



                            I'm thinking this is yet another case of you being right no matter what, and not interested at all in discussing it.
                            Obsidian is a lot like darfius. Very literal and nobody is a "real" Christian but himself apparently.

                            Comment

                            • #74
                              Obsidian seems to read the Bible with his teacher's tongue.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Obsidian seems to read the Bible with his teacher's tongue.
                                what does that mean?

                                Comment

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