Turning from sin and conversion

[Obsidian]

Obsidian is a lot like darfius. Very literal and nobody is a "real" Christian but himself apparently.

I have known for a while that Tabibito is not a real Christian. He overtly preaches works salvation. You are a real Christian (as far as I can tell), but you are confused and somewhat watered-down. In contrast, Cow Poke basically agrees with me, but he just doesn't like being mean to anybody, and he dislikes me.

[tabibito]

what does that mean?

It means he doesn't read it for himself and try to work out the questions for which the Bible provides the answers.

To demonstrate (though it is harping a bit)

Romans 10:10 For with the heart, we believe unto justice; but with the mouth, confession is unto salvation. (Catholic Public Domain Bible)

What questions would a person need to ask, to get the answers provided here. Going for the main points first

What is the outcome of "believe"?
What is the outcome of "confession"?

Follow up with (just one of the) secondary issues:
With what does the person confess?

(Does faith cleanse you of sin? This text can't answer that question - look elsewhere for the text that can.)

So then: it might be that someone can find major questions to ask of this text that I haven't thought of, but the only valid questions are those directly answered by its statements.

Then comes the task of getting an over-all picture.

[Sparko]

I have known for a while that Tabibito is not a real Christian. He overtly preaches works salvation. You are a real Christian (as far as I can tell), but you are confused and somewhat watered-down. In contrast, Cow Poke basically agrees with me, but he just doesn't like being mean to anybody, and he dislikes me.

Where has Tabibbito preached works salvation? And Cow Poke and I agree on just about 100% about Christianity as far as I can tell. But from what you have said to me in this thread, you just want to take anything anyone says in the worst way possible so you can claim they are not "real" Christians. You also seem to think that merely mouthing the words "Jesus save me" saves you, without even having to have any intention of following Christ or changing. That's nonsense.

When you are saved you are giving yourself to God, choosing to be on his side. Making him your lord and master. No, you won't be perfect, but God will change you. That is called sanctification. God makes you a new man and continues to sanctify you. If you continue to just live in sin, and ignoring God, then a person really needs to question if he is saved or not.

Repenting doesn't save you, but the willingness to repent is part of the choice you make to follow God and belong to him. You have to realize what a wretch you are and that you need saving. You do it out of faith and gratefulness with the help of the Holy Spirit.

And you seem to be trying too hard to ignore works altogether. If you are saved you WILL do good works. If you don't you probably aren't saved. Just calling on Jesus doesn't save you if you are not willing to change.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[Cow Poke]

I have known for a while that Tabibito is not a real Christian. He overtly preaches works salvation. You are a real Christian (as far as I can tell), but you are confused and somewhat watered-down. In contrast, Cow Poke basically agrees with me, but he just doesn't like being mean to anybody, and he dislikes me.

I really don't dislike you, Obsidian - I just find you rather wooden, at times. I don't like being mean to fellow Christians, but I have no problem antagonizing the anti-Christian bigots who frequent here.

[tabibito]

Where has Tabibbito preached works salvation? .

Note the time stamps for the post where he decided to indulge in name calling, and the time stamp for my follow up with the meme. Less than 1 minute separation - I made the meme 5 hours earlier. There is a group that penetrates just about all denominations to which he seems to be an adherent.

[Cow Poke]

When you are saved you are giving yourself to God, choosing to be on his side. Making him your lord and master.

This is one of those places where, while true, I find that, in a practical sense, there are people who recognize Jesus as Savior, having repented from their sins, and repenting from their errant ways, but it's in "growing as a Christian" that they come to the realization that He is either Lord of all, or He's not really Lord AT all (to them).

[Obsidian]

You also seem to think that merely mouthing the words "Jesus save me" saves you, without even having to have any intention of following Christ or changing.

If you believe on Christ, he will do his best to change you whether you intend it or not.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the meantime, if you resist the change, then he will discipline you in this life, and you will lose out on the possibility of rewards in the next.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Hebrews 12:6

[F]or whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Having an "intention" to follow God's law means nothing. Do, or do not. There is no try. You either follow the law, and get rewarded, or you disobey, and get chastened. But salvation is based on neither. Salvation isn't based on intention, or on obedience. It is based on faith.

This isn't nonsense. It's the Bible.

[Sparko]

This is one of those places where, while true, I find that, in a practical sense, there are people who recognize Jesus as Savior, having repented from their sins, and repenting from their errant ways, but it's in "growing as a Christian" that they come to the realization that He is either Lord of all, or He's not really Lord AT all (to them).

Yeah, which is why many drop like the weeds growing on the side of the road.

There are times I am a pretty lax Christian, not doing what I know I should. But then it seems that God gives me a kick in the pants and I get back on track for a while. It's a work in progress for sure.

[Cow Poke]

If you believe on Christ, he will do his best to change you whether you intend it or not.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the meantime, if you resist the change, then he will discipline you in this life, and you will lose out on the possibility of rewards in the next.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Hebrews 12:6

[F]or whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Having an "intention" to follow God's law means nothing. Do, or do not. There is no try. You either follow the law, and get rewarded, or you disobey, and get chastened. But salvation is based on neither. Salvation isn't based on intention, or on obedience. It is based on faith.

This isn't nonsense. It's the Bible.

Two whom was Paul writing in 1 Corinthians?

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

[Sparko]

If you believe on Christ, he will do his best to change you whether you intend it or not.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the meantime, if you resist the change, then he will discipline you in this life, and you will lose out on the possibility of rewards in the next.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Hebrews 12:6

[F]or whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Having an "intention" to follow God's law means nothing. Do, or do not. There is no try. You either follow the law, and get rewarded, or you disobey, and get chastened. But salvation is based on neither. Salvation isn't based on intention, or on obedience. It is based on faith.

This isn't nonsense. It's the Bible.

I have no idea what you are even arguing about. It's like we are having two different conversations.

How can you have faith in Christ and not have any intention of following him? That doesn't even make sense. If you believe in Jesus and want to be saved you will want to change and repent. You are repenting (turning around) from your old pagan life and to your new Christian one at the very least.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, which is why many drop like the weeds growing on the side of the road.

There are times I am a pretty lax Christian, not doing what I know I should. But then it seems that God gives me a kick in the pants and I get back on track for a while. It's a work in progress for sure.

I used to be pretty adamantly 'black and white' about people either being saved or not - like being pregnant - you either are or you are not.

Then I heard Paul Little talk about people either being believers "or still on the road". And I realized there are a lot of people who are "on the road" to becoming a Christian, and it's kinda slamming the door in their face by forcing them into the "lost" box, or declaring them not to be Christians.

I'm glad Jesus was patient with me while I was "on the road" to knowing Him.

[Obsidian]

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

This verse is talking about false prophets like Tabibito, who say that Jesus is their lord based on their "many wonderful works," but in reality they don't even believe the gospel. It isn't talking about real Christians who do bad works.

Matthew 7:15-22

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. . . . 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And you seem to be trying too hard to ignore works altogether. If you are saved you WILL do good works. If you don't you probably aren't saved. Just calling on Jesus doesn't save you if you are not willing to change.

If what you are saying is true, then why do you use the word "probably"?

A better rule would be the one that the Bible actually says: If you get saved, and live in sin, but suffer no chastisement, then you are not really a son.

Hebrews 12:8

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

However, neither sins nor chastisement is always easy for others to see.

[Sparko]

I used to be pretty adamantly 'black and white' about people either being saved or not - like being pregnant - you either are or you are not.

Then I heard Paul Little talk about people either being believers "or still on the road". And I realized there are a lot of people who are "on the road" to becoming a Christian, and it's kinda slamming the door in their face by forcing them into the "lost" box, or declaring them not to be Christians.

I'm glad Jesus was patient with me while I was "on the road" to knowing Him.

Yeah looking back at my journey, I see how I got to the point where I finally accepted Jesus as my lord and came forward at the altar call. It took a lot to get me there. Mostly it was the examples set by Christians I knew along the way. My dad becoming saved is what cinched it for me though.

[Obsidian]

How can you have faith in Christ and not have any intention of following him? That doesn't even make sense.

I can imagine that most, if not all, who put their trust in Christ for salvation have at least some intention of following him. That seems like a natural thing. However, having an intent to follow someone at one moment doesn't preclude the person from getting frustrated and losing that intent later — which could result in serious sin. We aren't saved from actually ceasing from sin. We certainly aren't saved from just having an initial intent, which could later change, and which might not even result in cessation of sin. Instead, why shouldn't we just use the condition that the Bible actually lists? The condition that the Bible lists is belief. If you start adding things — even if they are seemingly innocuous things that pretty much everyone may do anyway (such as an initial intent to follow) — you risk distorting God's word. At the very least, you allow your theology to become confused.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah looking back at my journey, I see how I got to the point where I finally accepted Jesus as my lord and came forward at the altar call. It took a lot to get me there. Mostly it was the examples set by Christians I knew along the way. My dad becoming saved is what cinched it for me though.

Yup. I simply find no value in this pharisaic "I'm a Christian and you're not" nonsense in a judgmental sense. In discipleship, sure, there's a need to help a person assess their walk, but we are not going to help them "come home" by slamming the door in their face.

One of my favorite encounters along these lines was when I was introduced as the chaplain to a local high school football team. Their main quarterback was a HUGE African-American kid who walked over to me with a big grin to shake my hand.

I was a bit overwhelmed by his size, but my mouth opened and words came out -- "Do you know Jesus as your Savior?" He smiled really big and said, emphatically, "yes sir, I sure do".

Then my mouth opened again and more words came out -- "And are you living for Him?" He immediately hung his head, his smile disappeared, and he said, "No, sir, I'm not".

He became one of my favorite and most fruitful disipling projects.


(Of course, I could have just slammed the door in his face and declared him not to be a real Christian)