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Turning from sin and conversion

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    No, turning from sin is not an essential part of conversion. But it is strongly encouraged.

    Hebrews 12:7-8
    If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    I don't follow the argument. How does God's relationship with established believers interact with the conversion of non-believers?
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #32
      Because once the non-believers become believers, they will be chastened if they don't cooperate with God's plan.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        Because once the non-believers become believers, they will be chastened if they don't cooperate with God's plan.
        So just believing in God is enough to be saved? Satan and the demons believe in God.

        Comment


        • #34
          So just believing in God is enough to be saved?
          Believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life.

          Satan and the demons believe in God.
          Satan and his demons are unsaveable. It doesn't matter what they believe or do.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            Believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life.
            Believing "ON?" or "in" what does believing "on" mean?

            Merely believing God or Jesus exists doesn't save anyone. You have to turn your life over to him and ask him to save you. That requires admitting you need him because you are a sinner, and obeying him because he is your LORD and master. Which means you need to repent because he told us to.

            Comment


            • #36
              Believing on means to expect the object on which you are believing to save you.

              Believing "in" could mean the same thing, or it could just mean to believe in the existence of something: "I believe in Bigfoot."

              Originally posted by Sparko
              You have to turn your life over to him and ask him to save you. That requires admitting you need him because you are a sinner, and obeying him because he is your LORD and master. Which means you need to repent because he told us to.
              I'm not sure what you mean by "turn your life over to him," but when you mention obeying him, you are basically mixing in the works of the law with your definition of faith. Obeying God is clearly part of the law.

              Mark 12:28-30

              28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                Believing on means to expect the object on which you are believing to save you.

                Believing "in" could mean the same thing, or it could just mean to believe in the existence of something: "I believe in Bigfoot."



                I'm not sure what you mean by "turn your life over to him," but when you mention obeying him, you are basically mixing in the works of the law with your definition of faith. Obeying God is clearly part of the law.

                Mark 12:28-30

                28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
                You obey God because you belong to him and because you are saved. You can't just say you believe in God and go on living a life of sin and rebellion. Your actions would betray you. Paying lip service to God doesn't save you.

                So I guess you don't obey God so he doesn't think you are accidentally "following the law?"

                Turning your life over to God means making him your LORD and Master. Choosing to be on his side and trusting your life to him. And you show your loyalty by obeying him.

                1 John 2:4-6 (NIV)
                4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko
                  You can't just say you believe in God and go on living a life of sin and rebellion.
                  Yes you can. That is what the chastening is for.

                  Paying lip service to God doesn't save you.
                  Sure it does.

                  Romans 10:8-9

                  8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


                  So I guess you don't obey God so he doesn't think you are accidentally "following the law?"
                  That is kind of a silly assumption on your part, given that there is nothing wrong with following the law.

                  Comment


                  • #39


                    Rom 10:10 - Confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord leads to salvation - It is not possible to confess to something that isn't fact (though a false confession is possible), but the "false" has to be specified.
                    Rom 10:10 - Believing in your heart leads to ... justification. No more than that. And believing in Christ means trusting him and the truth of his words. Did he say that works were necessary? That he did. Can a person believe in Christ and call him a liar? Not a chance.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      In what sense would confessing the Lord Jesus be "false"?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        In what sense would confessing the Lord Jesus be "false"?
                        If a confession (to anything) is false, it is a lie. Police have been known to deal with false confessions from time to time.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          You are insinuating that Jesus is not the Messiah.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            What I send is under my control - what happens to it after it is received is not.

                            A person who gives a false confession that Christ is Lord would be falsely declaring that Christ is his Lord.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Clearly it is teaching that any sincere acceptance ("confess[ion]") of Jesus will make him your Lord. Otherwise, it would be teaching this tautology: If you confess that Jesus has saved you, and if you are telling the truth, then Jesus has saved you. That is a completely stupid, meaningless interpretation.

                              The next several verses afterward (not to mention the verses preceding) drill home over and over again that Jesus will save whomever calls. The only requirement is to call on him, another way of saying that we must believe. There is no requirement of law-keeping to make Jesus your Lord. What other country on earth do you become a member of by keeping laws? That's not how immigration even works.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                Clearly it is teaching that any sincere acceptance ("confess[ion]") of Jesus will make him your Lord.
                                I know what confession is - and for those who don't , the verse declares that a person must do it with his mouth - just as a matter of making it clear.
                                Otherwise, it would be teaching this tautology: If you confess that Jesus has saved you, and if you are telling the truth, then Jesus has saved you. That is a completely stupid, meaningless interpretation.
                                The nonsense is in "has saved." The verse doesn't present any of its verbs in the perfect tense. The verbs in the protasis are subjunctive (provided that the stated conditions are met), will be saved (future), raised (aorist, = past), and raised applies to Christ.

                                The next several verses afterward (not to mention the verses preceding) drill home over and over again that Jesus will save whomever calls.
                                Whence this claim?
                                8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the word of
                                faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your
                                heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are
                                justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
                                11It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”e 12For there
                                is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call
                                on Him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
                                Nowhere in the Bible, that's a cert.

                                The only requirement is to call on him, another way of saying that we must believe. There is no requirement of law-keeping to make Jesus your Lord. What other country on earth do you become a member of by keeping laws? That's not how immigration even works.
                                Oh dear, so much eisegesis in that claim.

                                [edit] Or rather, so much pushing an analogy past its elastic limit.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 04-17-2019, 03:18 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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