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The Mueller Report

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    That is a crucial tenant of prosecution. It's GREAT for the person who might be wrongly indicted, but it's a real challenge to enforcement when you "know for a fact" that somebody committed the rape or murder or... you might even have an actual confession that was obtained prior to mirandizing, and therefore inadmissible, but with tons of circumstantial evidence... but if you don't believe you'd be able to convince a judge or jury (whichever the case may be) you don't take it to trial.

    You can even, in the above circumstance, take it to a Grand Jury and secure an indictment, but, as you say, if you don't really think you can prove it in court, you're better off either continuing to gather evidence, facts and testimony, or move on to other challenges.

    When it comes right down to it, however, impeachment is a political animal, not a criminal one.
    I don't think it was intended as such - but it is certainly how it frequently has been used.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Dershowitz said Trump cannot be guilty of obstruction for performing duties allowed under his constitutional presidential powers.

      “[I]n my introduction in the Mueller report, I go through the elements of obstruction of justice,” he said. “The act itself has to be illegal. It can’t be an act that is authorized under Article Two of the Constitution.”

      That included the firing of then-FBI Director James Comey, he contended.

      “It’s not even a close case,” Dershowitz explained. “The best analogy is president George H. W. Bush pardoned Caspar Weinberger on the eve of his trial in order to stop the Iran-Contra investigation. The special prosecutor said he did it for that reason. Nobody suggested obstruction. It can’t be obstruction of justice if the president is acting within his authority. Nixon obstructed justice because he acted outside his authority, destroying evidence, paying hush money, telling his subordinates to lie to the FBI.”

      Dershowitz warned Democrats, including Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA), there would be consequences if Democrats continued to pursue impeachment.

      “I am telling her all of the time,” he added. “She better start listening, because it’s going to come back to hurt the Democrats. I am a Democrat. I’m a liberal. I want to see the Constitution complied with, I want the Democrats to do the right thing, get back to the business of legislating.”

      https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2019...the-democrats/
      I believe it was in that same interview that Dersh said something to the effect that most of Trump's "coup" language is over the top, with the exception of the "25th Amendment" stuff. Anyone who was involved in those discussions was participating in an attempted bloodless coup.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        I think you are now agreeing with me carpe, that's exactly what I said, there should be Congressional hearings so that the American people can decide for themselves after hearing and seeing it, and the Congress can decide as well whether or not to impeach. In my opinion there is more than sufficient evidence to conclude impeachment is necessary, but I think it imperitive that Congressional hearings take place so the American people can judge for themselves as well. The politics should have nothing to do with whether to impeach or not, it's about the evidence and the moral and Constitutional responsibility to do so.
        I was actually responding to statements like, "In order for the President to be indicted for his crimes, the Congress first has to impeach him." It made me think that you did not realize that impeachment is the Congressional equivalent of indictment, to be followed by a trial in the Senate. The rest of your posts did not lean this way, but that sentence had already left me with that impression. You also seem more than willing to declare Mr. Trump "guilty." I'm not. I think there is an enormous amount of stink around this administration, and it should all be investigated thoroughly. Trump has too much of a history of bullying, unethical business dealings, and self-aggrandizement to make me think that there is not a significant probability/possibility of him being guilty. And he's working too hard to keep everything secret. But the fact is we do not have all of the evidence (at least, I have not seen it), and we have not had a trial. Unlike the sea of people willing to scream "lock her up" (including Mr. Trump), I believe the process should be allowed to work and am not willing to declare Mr. Trump "guilty" without a trial before a jury of his "peers."
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Wannnnhhhhhh, Trump is a crook, we need an investigation.... Special Council!!!! YAY!!!! Mueller is on the job, indictments are flying, people are going to JAIL!!!! Trump is going DOWN!!!!!
          Waaaannnnnhhhhhh, Mueller didn't deliver what we wanted, we want MORE hearings....
          Yes.. some of us do...

          Too many unanswered questions.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            It's like Hillary saying she would accept the results of the election when she felt certain she would win.
            IIRC, Clinton said she would accept the results, and that's exactly what she did. To my knowledge, after a brief pause to verify the close elections in 3 states, she conceded and did not challenge the election results again (thought she certainly tried hard to explain why she lost). Trump, on the other hand, continued to say "we'll see" when asked if he would accept the results, and then graciously accepted the results when he won.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              The evidence suggests that the investigation was not only shady but entirely politically motivated, not least is the fact that despite expending tremendous resources and digging deep into Trump's professional and personal life, they couldn't find even a scrap of evidence that implicates Trump.

              I know this frustrates you, but it's the simple truth
              No - it's not. But you continue to repeat it. If there was "not a shred of evidence" there would be no reason for Mueller to write, "While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." As usual, your extreme, B/W, grasp of these things doesn't allow for other possibilities, like Mueller found evidence, but not enough or of a type that would lead to a conviction.

              "Innocent" (i.e., didn't do it) and "Legally innocent" (i.e., cannot legally prove he did it) are not the same things. The fact is, we are in a grey area in between. On the issue of Russian collusion, the report appears to clear Trump's campaign (legally, if not morally). On the issue of obstruction of justice, it does not.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                From something I just posted in another thread:
                So that's his entire base and a few moderates...is this surprising?

                And what does a percentage of what people think about X tell us about the truth of X?
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  "This investigation could not conclude that the President committed any crimes."
                  -Special Counsel Robert Mueller

                  "After reviewing the Special Counsel's final report on these issues; consulting with Department officials, including the Office of Legal Counsel; and applying the principles of federal prosecution that guide our charging decisions, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel's investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense."
                  -Attorney General William Barr

                  I notice you cheery-picked the first quote. Here is the entire quote:

                  "While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
                  Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-27-2019, 04:21 PM.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    I believe it was in that same interview that Dersh said something to the effect that most of Trump's "coup" language is over the top, with the exception of the "25th Amendment" stuff. Anyone who was involved in those discussions was participating in an attempted bloodless coup.
                    On that I disagree. If there is reason to believe that a sitting president is unable to lead, I believe it is unpatriotic NOT to consider this. Remember that the people who would be considering this are the president's OWN appointees, plus the VP and that Congress has to agree. That form of "bloodless coup" was intentionally written into the constitution specifically to supplement the impeachment clauses and deal with non-criminal issues (e.g., dimentia, coma, etc.). If there is reason to think a sitting president is psychologically impaired, then the discussion needs to be had.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      I believe it was in that same interview that Dersh said something to the effect that most of Trump's "coup" language is over the top, with the exception of the "25th Amendment" stuff. Anyone who was involved in those discussions was participating in an attempted bloodless coup.
                      Not if Trump's mental or psychological condition rendered(or renders) him unfit for office.

                      It's only a 'bloodless coup' if the condition for which that statute exists doesn't actually exist.




                      Jim
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        I notice you cheery-picked the first quote. Here is the entire quote:

                        "While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
                        We've been over this before: That was a partly political statement because prosecutors don't exonerate for the very simple reason that one is presumed innocent until convicted, and as former federal prosecutor Chris Christie said, when a prosecutor says he could find no reason to charge you with a crime then you don't need to be exonerated.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Which part of Mueller's report convinced you that Trump was guilty: the part where Mueller said no members of the Trump campaign coordinated or conspired with Russia,
                          Mueller did NOT say that no members of the Trump campaign were involved with the Russians. Just that he didn't find sufficient evidence to charge anyone with conspiracy for coordinating with Russia to influence the 2016 election. "There are at least 101 known points of contact between people associated with the Trump campaign and Russian government-linked individuals or entities from November of 2015 all the way up to January of 2017".

                          https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...imeline-2018-7

                          or was it the part where he said he could not conclude that Trump obstructed justice?
                          He nevertheless provided 10 instances that looked very much like attempted obstruction of justice. These are rightly being followed up by Congress, despite every attempt by Trump to block it.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            Not if Trump's mental or psychological condition rendered(or renders) him unfit for office.

                            It's only a 'bloodless coup' if the condition for which that statute exists doesn't actually exist.

                            Jim

                            Kindly read Turley's 2017 comments here, and explain why anyone seriously advocating that route is not a ridiculous jackass.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              We've been over this before: That was a partly political statement because prosecutors don't exonerate for the very simple reason that one is presumed innocent until convicted, and as former federal prosecutor Chris Christie said, when a prosecutor says he could find no reason to charge you with a crime then you don't need to be exonerated.
                              Yes - we already determined that if you agree with it - it's "legal." If you disagree, it's "political."

                              It actually doesn't change that you cherry-picked the quote to emphasize what you wanted to emphasize. I just provided the entire statement so others could make their own judgments.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Yes - we already determined that if you agree with it - it's "legal." If you disagree, it's "political."

                                It actually doesn't change that you cherry-picked the quote to emphasize what you wanted to emphasize. I just provided the entire statement so others could make their own judgments.
                                You think it is a prosecutor's job to exonerate someone who was never charged with a crime? Please explain your reasoning.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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