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Thread: Abnormal Behavior...

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaC View Post
    How does any of it threaten the survival of the species? Animals kill, rape, and engage in many questionable sexual practices among their own species on a regular basis. None of it threatens them on a larger scale, and there have been atheists who have defended rape from an evolutionary perspective. Obviously I think it's wrong, because I believe in objective morality, but I don't see how they have any basis to claim that "reason" or "survival" justifies not behaving in certain ways.
    Do you think the animals, because of not knowing, or not understanding gods moral code, are immoral for not abiding it? We thinking beings use reason to decide what kind of behavior's are in our best interests as a community living together. That's how "reason" justifies our moral codes of behavior.
    Last edited by JimL; 04-21-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Why would that be abnormal? If there was a genetic predisposition towards our own destruction, it wouldn't be good, but abnormal? As a matter of fact if the majority thought/acted that way those who sought to preserve the species would be the abnormal ones.
    In the survival of the species genetic predisposition towards our own destruction would be counter to the survival of the species therefore wrong, as is normal through out the history of humanity is determined to be moral, dominant, and the species survives.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
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    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

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  3. #13
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Do you think the animals, because of not knowing, or not understanding gods moral code, are immoral for not abiding it? We thinking beings use reason to decide what kind of behavior's are in our best interests as a community living together. That's how "reason" justifies our moral codes of behavior.
    Immorality doesn't make sense to apply to animal behavior(which I know is not your argument either).

    So, if enough people decided that pedophilia was in the best interest of a community, there would be no moral objection to it? What connection does that have to reason? As a more moderate example, there are many people today who argue that the world is overpopulated. Wouldn't reason and self-interested survival suggest that we should kill people(whatever group may have undesirable traits that we as a society dictate) until our numbers balance out? In other words, why was Thanos wrong, if reason is the only means to judge moral actions.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaC View Post
    Immorality doesn't make sense to apply to animal behavior(which I know is not your argument either).
    Why not? Would human beings who are ignorant of your gods moral code be immoral for not abiding it?
    So, if enough people decided that pedophilia was in the best interest of a community, there would be no moral objection to it?
    No, but if for some "reason" pedophilia was deemed to be in the best interests of society, then it would probably be considered to be normal. But of course that is silly, because we know that would actually contradict sound "reason."

    What connection does that have to reason? As a more moderate example, there are many people today who argue that the world is overpopulated. Wouldn't reason and self-interested survival suggest that we should kill people(whatever group may have undesirable traits that we as a society dictate) until our numbers balance out? In other words, why was Thanos wrong, if reason is the only means to judge moral actions.
    No,that wouldn't be "reasonable" as those people, or groups of people are part of the whole community. What we do is use birth control, have less children than we used to, allow women to have control over their own bodies, abortion etc.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Why not? Would human beings who are ignorant of your gods moral code be immoral for not abiding it?
    So... you really are arguing that animal behavior is "immoral?" Would humans who disagree with your interpretation of reason be likewise immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, but if for some "reason" pedophilia was deemed to be in the best interests of society, then it would probably be considered to be normal. But of course that is silly, because we know that would actually contradict sound "reason."
    "But of course that is silly" ? How do we know this, according to sound reason? You can't just dismiss a moral claim as silly, that's not a logical argument for immorality.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No,that wouldn't be "reasonable" as those people, or groups of people are part of the whole community. What we do is use birth control, have less children than we used to, allow women to have control over their own bodies, abortion etc.
    So then all society needs to do is define certain groups of people as existing outside of society, and then there's no moral problem. Are you going to force women to use birth control and have fewer children and get abortions? If we know that the world is overpopulated and that if X number of people being born will lead to global extinction, then how is it not "reasonable" to balance the population through murder? You know it's not, I know you do, but you've yet to make an argument based on sound, irrefutable reason as to why that would not be acceptable.

  6. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaC View Post
    Immorality doesn't make sense to apply to animal behavior(which I know is not your argument either).

    So, if enough people decided that pedophilia was in the best interest of a community, there would be no moral objection to it? What connection does that have to reason? As a more moderate example, there are many people today who argue that the world is overpopulated. Wouldn't reason and self-interested survival suggest that we should kill people(whatever group may have undesirable traits that we as a society dictate) until our numbers balance out? In other words, why was Thanos wrong, if reason is the only means to judge moral actions.
    People do not decide Pedophilia is in the best interest of a community. Over time behavior is largely determined by what has the greatest survival advantage for the species, and Pedophilia do not have a survival value for the survival of the species. A diversity of behaviors will exist in human sexuality, but the dominant sexual behaviors that insure the successful reproduction and the survival of the species will always be in the majority. This is true of other primate species, which indeed do have more primitive social structure and morality including punishing violations.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-21-2019 at 07:36 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  8. #17
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    It seems that if materialism/atheism is true no behavior could rightly be considered abnormal. Not homosexuality, pedophilia, not transgenderism, not bestiality. If psychologically there is no objectively right way for a human to act or be, what behavior couldn't be considered normal for our species? Certainly things like murder or rape, though practiced less, would have to be considered normal.
    The behavior considered “normal” for our species is what we, as a social species, determine to be normal. And, in days gone by, we would create gods to reinforce such behavior.

    Of course, the behavior permitted by the gods of the classical era was not the same as the behavior permitted by the gods created during the nomadic, tribal era…such as the Judeo/Christian god. But rarely, apart from divine authority to slaughter “the other”, was “murder or rape” tolerated by any of the gods.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  9. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    People do not decide Pedophilia is in the best interest of a community. Over time behavior is largely determined by what has the greatest survival advantage for the species, and Pedophilia do not have a survival value for the survival of the species. A diversity of behaviors will exist in human sexuality, but the dominant sexual behaviors that insure the successful reproduction and the survival of the species will always be in the majority. This is true of other primate species, which indeed do have more primitive social structure and morality including punishing violations.
    And how do we determine which behaviors have the greatest survival advantage?

  10. #19
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    And how do we determine which behaviors have the greatest survival advantage?
    'We' do not determine it. Species evolve and survive, including homo sapiens, based on what the dominant behavior is for the best advantage of the survival of the species. The cooperative family and tribal structure are the basic social units for survival in human history. Morals and ethics are required for the survival of the cooperative community family and tribal units. There, of course, variations in the morals and ethics in the history of humanity, but there is a consistent pattern in the history of humanity, which does evolve over time. One of the factors of evolving morals and ethics is that they are becoming more universal world wide.

    I believe one example is the trend from polygamy to monogamy over time as dominant the world standard. Another is the progressive trend of the end of all forms of slavery.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-25-2019 at 02:56 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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