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Thread: Torah Comes From Tarot Cards

  1. #51
    42nd Mojave Year DesertBerean's Avatar
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    Esoteric means stuff that are understood only by a few. For what purpose?

    Torah and tarot have no true connection at all, esoteric or otherwise. Some medieval occultist group dreamed it up to claim some strange mysterious doctrine that has nothing to do with God.

  2. #52
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHermes View Post
    Yes we've concluded that the original tarot decks were created in medieval times, but their influence comes from a much older origin(Mesopotamia)
    Nope. They MODELED their images from the ancient world, and may have retro-fitted those ancient images with mysticism and arcane meanings, but that was the origin of those arcane and mystic interpretations, not the original images.

    as I posted one a pic of a of the "world" tarot on the cylinder seal, which date far before medieval times.
    No you didn't. you posted an unreferenced cylinder with a figure inside an oval which bears a minimal similarity to a tarot card. The original figure is probably of Gilgamesh and is in no way esoterically linked to that card.

    And the tarot themselves as we discussed are based on esoteric theology which have their eternal foundations.
    No they don't. They are made-up copies and re-imaginations of older unrelated art, sculptures, and concepts that has no root in the actual history of that art, sculpture, or concept.

    Especially when it comes to hermeticism. For example, the Magician card represents God in it's masculine form (based on esoteric tarot theology). I can go in details, but I'm sure you get the drift.

    I just want to post this real quick quote from that site I cited earlier.
    "Esoteric" tarot theology can not be traced any further back than the 1100s. It stole everything and repurposed it for tarot. It's quackery.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

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  3. Amen tabibito amen'd this post.
  4. #53
    tWebber JohnHermes's Avatar
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    Minimal? Funny I posted the same image on reddit and everyone seems to say there's a high resemblance to the photo. There are far too many "coincidences" between the images to just write it off as a mere coincidence. Denying that then just falls into cognitive dissonance. The cylinder seal is at the british museum.

  5. #54
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHermes View Post
    Minimal? Funny I posted the same image on reddit and everyone seems to say there's a high resemblance to the photo. There are far too many "coincidences" between the images to just write it off as a mere coincidence. Denying that then just falls into cognitive dissonance. The cylinder seal is at the british museum.
    Reddit? Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  6. #55
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHermes View Post
    Minimal? Funny I posted the same image on reddit and everyone seems to say there's a high resemblance to the photo.
    You wouldn't have happened to post that on r/Tarot, would you have?

  7. #56
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    LOL. Reading the comments to the two threads he posted (with the exact same dual image as here), "everyone" was 2 people in r/tarot who said "yeah, they do look similar," one guy who said, "interesting," one was "seems like a stretch," (3 upvotes) and when he replied to that with "too many coincidences to be a coincidence, everyone I know who studies tarot sees it" spiel (paraphrased) another dude replied, "they study tarot not Sumerian history" (2 upvotes).

    People on Tarot forums are telling him the same thing you guys told him here. LOL



    Edit: Wow, people in other threads in r/tarot, people who actually believe in tarot are ripping his theory to shreds. "Fyi this is super not accurate, this theory was written before we translated the tablet. We know what heiroglyphics mean now and we know that tarot cards came from medical Europe." and "Iím not sure which is more compelling- the grammatical and punctuation errors, or the specious reasoning and dubious historical claims. But every exclamation point made me believe it more and more!"
    Last edited by Adrift; 06-10-2019 at 06:13 PM.

  8. Amen Chrawnus, Terraceth, ReformedApologist amen'd this post.
  9. #57
    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    LOL. Reading the comments to the two threads he posted (with the exact same dual image as here), "everyone" was 2 people in r/tarot who said "yeah, they do look similar," one guy who said, "interesting," one was "seems like a stretch," (3 upvotes) and when he replied to that with "too many coincidences to be a coincidence, everyone I know who studies tarot sees it" spiel (paraphrased) another dude replied, "they study tarot not Sumerian history" (2 upvotes).

    People on Tarot forums are telling him the same thing you guys told him here. LOL



    Edit: Wow, people in other threads in r/tarot, people who actually believe in tarot are ripping his theory to shreds. "Fyi this is super not accurate, this theory was written before we translated the tablet. We know what heiroglyphics mean now and we know that tarot cards came from medical Europe." and "Iím not sure which is more compelling- the grammatical and punctuation errors, or the specious reasoning and dubious historical claims. But every exclamation point made me believe it more and more!"
    Correct, even historians of Tarot tell you the history goes back only from the 13-15th century https://science.howstuffworks.com/sc...arot-card6.htm

  10. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  11. #58
    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    I know that this is a bit of a thread-necro, but considering the fact that I am one of the relatively few Neo-Pagans on these boards and considering that I have a particular fascination with the history of Tarot, I thought I would put in my two cents.

    There is a fantastic book on the subject by Dr. Helen Farley called A Cultural History of Tarot: From Entertainment to Esotericism which I highly recommend for anyone interested in the subject. She traces the roots of the decks and their artistic and compositional changes through the centuries. She discusses all of the extant sources on the usage of Tarot cards. She extensively cites her research and explicitly notes the few times when she engages in speculation. She treats the material seriously and with scholarly intent, even (and especially) when discussing the more esoteric developments in the history of the cards. I stumbled upon the book while doing some research for a tabletop RPG character I was making (yep, I'm that kind of nerd) and proceeded to devour it as quickly as I could.

    Long story short: Tarot cards were first created for a trick-taking card game in 15th Century Northern Italy. The earliest known source which associates Tarot with cartomancy comes around 300 years later. Most of the esoteric notions, mystical claims, and erroneous history (particularly claims of Egyptian origin for the cards) arise even later than that with the popular occult movements of the 19th Century.

    Even shorter: imagine somebody pulled out a set of Pokemon cards and told you they could use them to divine your future.
    Last edited by Boxing Pythagoras; 05-13-2020 at 04:24 PM.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

  12. Amen Cerebrum123, DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  13. #59
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    I know that this is a bit of a thread-necro, but considering the fact that I am one of the relatively few Neo-Pagans on these boards and considering that I have a particular fascination with the history of Tarot, I thought I would put in my two cents.

    There is a fantastic book on the subject by Dr. Helen Farley called A Cultural History of Tarot: From Entertainment to Esotericism which I highly recommend for anyone interested in the subject. She traces the roots of the decks and their artistic and compositional changes through the centuries. She discusses all of the extant sources on the usage of Tarot cards. She extensively cites her research and explicitly notes the few times when she engages in speculation. She treats the material seriously and with scholarly intent, even (and especially) when discussing the more esoteric developments in the history of the cards. I stumbled upon the book while doing some research for a tabletop RPG character I was making (yep, I'm that kind of nerd) and proceeded to devour it as quickly as I could.

    Long story short: Tarot cards were first created for a trick-taking card game in 15th Century Northern Italy. The earliest known source which associates Tarot with cartomancy comes around 300 years later. Most of the esoteric notions, mystical claims, and erroneous history (particularly claims of Egyptian origin for the cards) arise even later than that with the popular occult movements of the 19th Century.

    Even shorter: imagine somebody pulled out a set of Pokemon cards and told you they could use them to divine your future.
    I remember when playing one of the Assassin's Creed games hearing a guard say "want to play a game of Tarot after our shift?" got me curious on it. Definitely an interesting bit of history.

  14. #60
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    Even shorter: imagine somebody pulled out a set of Pokemon cards and told you they could use them to divine your future.
    "Ah, yes, I see. You drew Ash's Pikachu. That means you're going to be the very best, that no ever was. But there is a catch, which is that you will not achieve this without some seriously grueling training."


  15. Amen Cerebrum123, QuantaFille amen'd this post.

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