Gee, Honey, I hope you make it.

[A Beautiful Truth]

What should I tell my young daughter if she asks about going to Heaven, "Gee, Honey, I hope you make it"? I do hope she is chosen and I know that even if I educate her and give her a foundation, she has no choice, if God did not choose her, my ministry to her is in vain?

And what about babies, etc. if God's choice is not based on potential belief in one's heart but is totally His arbitary choice? Will God choose all babies and retarded people? Is there an age that He stops choosing all babies?

Just asking, this may be very basic and it probably has been answered many times but I want to know--thanks.

~Charleen

[Jedidiah]

What should I tell my young daughter if she asks about going to Heaven, "Gee, Honey, I hope you make it"? I do hope she is chosen and I know that even if I educate her and give her a foundation, she has no choice, if God did not choose her, my ministry to her is in vain?

I definitely do not believe that the Bible teaches that your daughter has no choice in the matter. Freewill and predestination are not mutually exclusive. Check out the thread "The Question of the Future... " same department.

beeman

[rhutchin]

A Beautiful Truth
What should I tell my young daughter if she asks about going to Heaven, "Gee, Honey, I hope you make it"? I do hope she is chosen and I know that even if I educate her and give her a foundation, she has no choice, if God did not choose her, my ministry to her is in vain?

And what about babies, etc. if God's choice is not based on potential belief in one's heart but is totally His arbitary choice? Will God choose all babies and retarded people? Is there an age that He stops choosing all babies?

Just asking, this may be very basic and it probably has been answered many times but I want to know--thanks.

~Charleen

Believe on the Lord and you shall be saved and your household was the answer given to the jailer. We might suppose that this is true in part because the jailer petitioned God to save his household.

If you want God to save a baby, ask Him to save that baby. Would you object if God choose to save only those babies and retarded people that He was petitioned to save and left unsaved those whom no one petiitoned Him to save?

If your daughter asks about going to heaven, explain why people would not go to heaven and what a person must do to enter heaven. From the time of conception, you should have begun petitioning God to save your daughter. Don't stop until you see the evidence that He has. Then start petitioning God to direct your daughter in everything she does. I generally petition God for my sons when I ask the blessing before meals and have done so since they were born. Can't say that I have any complaints even though they aren't perfect and can be jerks every now and then. I would not want to go back and do it all over again and not pray for them. Might be an interesting experiment but I would not want to do it.

[geebob]

What should I tell my young daughter if she asks about going to Heaven, "Gee, Honey, I hope you make it"? I do hope she is chosen and I know that even if I educate her and give her a foundation, she has no choice, if God did not choose her, my ministry to her is in vain?

This pretty much goes into the issue of why I reject calvinism, specifically the traditional versions that involve reprobation. I remember sitting in my dorm room and reading scriptures that are favorite prooftexts for calvinism and I couldn't find a way to answer them and I realized that if I couldn't figure out how to interpret these scriptures, then I might have to abandon Christianity because reprobation was too much for me to swallow and I prayed fervently about this. I have since then found through some historical studies and theological texts very good reason not to take these scriptures at face value (and there are of course many scriptures that calvinsts wouldn't take at face value, so they can't fault me for holding out for further explanation). But this post is about why reprobation itself in unexeptable.

I have always found reprobation, typically defined as God's refusal to grant grace that could enable any person without qualification (except I'll accept the qualification that they had a chance at one point but continually rejected God utterly in this life (perhaps "blaspheming the spirit?")) to recieve salvation as a repugnant and deplorable view that has no place in the church where we believe in a righteous, just, and merciful God. I've always found the calvinistic defense of this notion from our depravity and unworthiness to be wholly inadequate especially since God is the one who decreed from all eternity that we should be so unworthy.

It is not entirely clear on the surface as to why this is so beyond my opinion, so I have had to attempt to unearth objective answers to see if my intuition was founded on truth. Calvinists would say that my view of Justice and righteousness is simply based upon my sinful subjective limited emotions.

IN response to this, I have come up with an arguement which gives an example of love that testifies to the perversity as it is in conflict with the very designs of God thus it cannot be ascribed to God as something he does. This I have done some time ago but within the last year, I have also found an article by a reformed philosopher by the name of Thomas Talbot (who is not reformed in the sense we think of it but he does work within that tradition as traditions are not frozen but are dynamic) and his article has a strenght that mine doesn't in that it is more explicitly rooted in scripture and central scriptures at that which go to the heart of what Christianity is about. Both of these arguements I have titled soteriological problems of evil from indescriminate love.

The argumuement I came up with is precisely what you cherith are now providing a living example of. It is normal and it is good for mothers to hope for and desire for the well being of their children for as long as they live, be that an atheistic mother who only sees the life of her child for this life or a spiritual mother christian or otherwise who desires for her child to benefit for eternity. This is a God given desire and there is no sin in it. I firmly believe that this desire mothers have for their children was part of the system that God pronounced "very good" at the end of creation. And yes there are psycotic counterexamples, but they are so because of the damage

Now if Calvinistic individualistic predestination is true, then some of these mothers have this hope for the well being of their children have a hope based upon ignorance. They hope because they don't know whether their children are destined to writhe in torment for eternity and in fact, some mothers have this hope when God knows by his very own decree that the hope is a false one.

Thus God has created a most vicious lie (as vicious as hell is tormenting) within these mothers and he called it good!

God created Eve to desire the well being of her boys and he called that good, and yet he had determined that this hope she had for cain even as she nursed him and adored him as a baby would be for nothing.

The second arguement comes from the two greatest commandments and the way I typically articulate it is close to the way Thomas Talbott articulates it. The two greatest commandments that sum up what the whole law was all about (and indeed the very law of Christ which is binding on us who seek to follow the Lord) is to Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and spirit, but I usually shorten it for practical purposes to love God with all your being. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

Now, what does Paul say of Love? Love always hopes. And explicitly you are to love your neighbor as yourself. Now something about man that the calvinist creeds tells us is that the purpose of man is to give glory to God and enjoy Him forever. Now you should want that for yourself. And since that is your purpose, that should be your greatest desire. But shouldn't you also want that for your neighbor? and yet, you will have neighbors whom God has reprobated. Now what if God reprobated you? could you love him then? No, he'd be thwarting the most fundamental desire of your life and furthermore, the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity as well as John's statement that we love because he first loved us testify to the impossibility. But if you love your neighbor as yourself, then it should also be one of the most fundamental desires that you have for your neighbor for him to recieve salvation so that he may glorify God AND enjoy him for eternity. So if you can't love God with all your being if he thwarted the desire for your salvation, then why should it be different on account of your neighbor whom you should attempt to love as yourself?

The upshot of this is that there are only two viable answers to this. One is universalism (which talbott holds to) and the other is free will theism where God does not thwart anyone's salvation but does everything he can to save everyone and anyone in influencing them to freely accept the grace that he has made available to them. And of course that they are free to accept entails that they are free to reject, but that they are free places the blame on their shoulders since they really could have accepted.


Now rhutch has attempted to answer talbott's dilemma by suggesting that Jesus is our neighbor as he insists that that is the message behind the good samaritan who is the example of our neighbor and the samaritan saved the travelor. I honestly have not found a surefire answer to this but I think at least the weight of evidence is against this notion. Jesus tells us to go and do likewise. The good samaritan may provide one example, but his actions also provide an example of who we are to treat as our neighbor... those in need, the lost, and the dieing. Also, the two greatest commandments would lose their comprehensiveness because the second commandment becomes a repeat of the first.

Less satisfactory answers and definite dead ends in attempt to answer this problem have been given and I'll name one and answer it. One is that we are are depraved and aren't even able to follow those commandments. I'll admit that I don't follow those two commandments as I should, but that's a problem on our end. God's commands are not beyond us because his commands are contradictory and imperfect.

FYI, talbot has four other arguements against reprobation and I wrote them up here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408

note the title says that belief in reprobation is an expression of human rebelliousness, but I want to highlight that this in no way implies that those who believe in reprobation do not often provide example of pious commited christians who love the Lord. Nevertheless, I see this as a problem in the church as does talbott and I would like to see belief in reprobation disappear.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Believe on the Lord and you shall be saved and your household was the answer given to the jailer. We might suppose that this is true in part because the jailer petitioned God to save his household.

You are right, this is true in part. I know of a godly woman who prayed for her son continually and he died a total heathen--in total rebellion. Her other children are Christians.

If you want God to save a baby, ask Him to save that baby.

I'll ask, but asking is a work and God does not save according to works--theirs or mine.

Would you object if God choose to save only those babies and retarded people that He was petitioned to save and left unsaved those whom no one petiitoned Him to save?

Yes, I would. I don't know of all the babies in Africa and China and India, let alone our own country.

If your daughter asks about going to heaven, explain why people would not go to heaven and what a person must do to enter heaven.

Must "do"? I thought it was all God?

From the time of conception, you should have begun petitioning God to save your daughter.

I appreciate your tender heart in understanding my concern BUT petitioning God is a work and He would not even hear me if I was not chosen. If God does not choose because He sees in advance who will believe, but is totally arbitary, how can MY belief and petition to God save my daughter???

I thought Calvinists like to use Romans 9 to show that election is not based on works. (I take Romans 9 to show the contrast between works and belief)

Don't stop until you see the evidence that He has. Then start petitioning God to direct your daughter in everything she does. I generally petition God for my sons when I ask the blessing before meals and have done so since they were born. Can't say that I have any complaints even though they aren't perfect and can be jerks every now and then. I would not want to go back and do it all over again and not pray for them. Might be an interesting experiment but I would not want to do it.

Again, sounds like you might be saying that salvation comes from your efforts in petition and not from God's arbitary choice.

[geebob]

I hope you scrolled up charleen. We were probably writing at the same time.

[brett]

If you want God to save a baby, ask Him to save that baby. Would you object if God choose to save only those babies and retarded people that He was petitioned to save and left unsaved those whom no one petiitoned Him to save?

If your daughter asks about going to heaven, explain why people would not go to heaven and what a person must do to enter heaven. From the time of conception, you should have begun petitioning God to save your daughter. Don't stop until you see the evidence that He has. Then start petitioning God to direct your daughter in everything she does. I generally petition God for my sons when I ask the blessing before meals and have done so since they were born. Can't say that I have any complaints even though they aren't perfect and can be jerks every now and then. I would not want to go back and do it all over again and not pray for them. Might be an interesting experiment but I would not want to do it.

So election is based on foreseen human petition??

[Smitten]

What should I tell my young daughter if she asks about going to Heaven, "Gee, Honey, I hope you make it"? I do hope she is chosen and I know that even if I educate her and give her a foundation, she has no choice,

Wrong. She does have a choice, thats one reason why you educate her.

if God did not choose her, my ministry to her is in vain?

God uses means, the work you do could be an integral part of Him drawing her to Him. Your fear of her rejection should not be based on whether you believe in predestination or not, the exact same dilemma is posed to you if God doesn't predestine. In that case, despite the work you do in her life, she still might simply freely reject Christ. And in both cases, the ends will make sense in light of the means.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Your fear of her rejection should not be based on whether you believe in predestination or not, the exact same dilemma is posed to you if God doesn't predestine. In that case, despite the work you do in her life, she still might simply freely reject Christ. And in both cases, the ends will make sense in light of the means.

It is a matter of what I tell her.

"Gee, Honey, I hope you are chosen" or

"If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart..."

One is a hope that God will choose her, the other is a "work" and unable to be attained unless God chooses her.

This conclusion is not in harmony with the character of God that can be known through the Bible, I therefore reject the interpretation of the scriptures that Calvinists base their premises.

I believe with a heart man CAN believe. God's choice is not based on our works--good or bad--but our belief, I do not believe God's choice in election is arbitrary at all.

[Smitten]

It is a matter of what I tell her.

"Gee, Honey, I hope you are chosen" or

"If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart..."

You are setting up a completely false dichotomy. When you word it this way of course there is a problem with believing election. Share the gospel with her.

One is a hope that God will choose her, the other is a "work" and unable to be attained unless God chooses her.

This conclusion is not in harmony with the character of God that can be known through the Bible, I therefore reject the interpretation of the scriptures that Calvinists base their premises.

So you are making an argument, not asking for advice then. Maybe you can provide reasons for your assertion.

I believe with a heart man CAN believe. God's choice is not based on our works--good or bad--but our belief, I do not believe God's choice in election is arbitrary at all.

Neither do i. What exactly, since you reject calvinism, do you think election is?

[A Beautiful Truth]

Wrong. She does have a choice, thats one reason why you educate her.

She has a choice to accept God? I thought it was only an appearance of choice because she only has a choice if God choose her. So it only appeared I had a choice to accept God, I actually had no choice because of God's irrestiable grace.

How do Calvinists educate their children in the gospel?

What if a mother has a miscarriage, what do we tell the remaining child about their sibling if they ask if they will see them in Heaven? "Gee, Honey, I hope so, I hope God choose our baby. There is no reason He would, except if it gave Him glory, and I hope saving our baby gives Him glory."?

I can't do that, everything I know about God says that is just outrageous, it is just plain wrong, God is not like that.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
If you want God to save a baby, ask Him to save that baby. Would you object if God choose to save only those babies and retarded people that He was petitioned to save and left unsaved those whom no one petiitoned Him to save?

If your daughter asks about going to heaven, explain why people would not go to heaven and what a person must do to enter heaven. From the time of conception, you should have begun petitioning God to save your daughter. Don't stop until you see the evidence that He has. Then start petitioning God to direct your daughter in everything she does. I generally petition God for my sons when I ask the blessing before meals and have done so since they were born. Can't say that I have any complaints even though they aren't perfect and can be jerks every now and then. I would not want to go back and do it all over again and not pray for them. Might be an interesting experiment but I would not want to do it.

Brett
So election is based on foreseen human petition??

Yes. At least, a subset of the those elected to salvation. Jesus strongly suggests that God responds to our petitions. I see no reason why a petition for salvation would be excluded. James said that we would not receive what we petition God for if we ask amiss. I do not see a petition for salvation to asking amiss (but it could be in some situations).

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
Believe on the Lord and you shall be saved and your household was the answer given to the jailer. We might suppose that this is true in part because the jailer petitioned God to save his household.

Charleen
You are right, this is true in part. I know of a godly woman who prayed for her son continually and he died a total heathen--in total rebellion. Her other children are Christians.

I have seen the same. So, the question is, Did her petitions have any bearing on the salvation of her children? I would tend to say yes. It would be nice to go back to the beginning and have her not pray for any of her children and see if we got the same results.

rhutchin
If you want God to save a baby, ask Him to save that baby.

Charlene
I'll ask, but asking is a work and God does not save according to works--theirs or mine.

I would disagree. I am convinced that God responds to our petitions and does not exclude those petitions for the salvation of the lost. Supposedly, many great revivals have been preceded by people praying before the revival. I have a hard time with the notion that God does not respond to our petitions.

rhutchin
Would you object if God choose to save only those babies and retarded people that He was petitioned to save and left unsaved those whom no one petiitoned Him to save?

Charlene
Yes, I would. I don't know of all the babies in Africa and China and India, let alone our own country.

I have known people with similar feelings and they became missionaries. Then, I have known people who wanted to be missionaries because they felt led to do so but without real purpose. They did not last.

rhutchin
If your daughter asks about going to heaven, explain why people would not go to heaven and what a person must do to enter heaven.

Charlene
Must "do"? I thought it was all God?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is all God, but it involves us, also. The woman with the issue of blood was saved by her faith, a faith that drove her to Christ. It is our faith that now drives us to petition God in everything, leaving nothing to chance.

[Kevin Wayne]

It is a matter of what I tell her.

"Gee, Honey, I hope you are chosen" or

"If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart..."

One is a hope that God will choose her, the other is a "work" and unable to be attained unless God chooses her.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the whole "Covenant Theology" thing that Calvinism is based on solve this problem, anyway? Just baptize your kid at birth, and that will take care of it! Since, obviously we are the New Israel, and therefore baptism is just like circumcision, so if you baptize a baby that's setting him/her apart the same way the Jews did by circumcision.

Of course, like most of the ideals held by the Magesterial Reformers, I think this view is crackers, but hey- at least your problem is solved! *chuckle*

[brett]

Yes. At least, a subset of the those elected to salvation. Jesus strongly suggests that God responds to our petitions. I see no reason why a petition for salvation would be excluded. James said that we would not receive what we petition God for if we ask amiss. I do not see a petition for salvation to asking amiss (but it could be in some situations).

Interesting theory. Would you go so far as to say that all genuine petitions for salvation with rightful motives will be effectual, or just some? If not, why not all?