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Thread: Is Jeffrey Dahmer In Heaven?

  1. #41
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    1 John 1:8 - Really?

    8 If we say that we have no (εχομεν) sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not (ημαρτηκαμεν) sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    ημαρτηκαμεν and εχομεν - both are perfect active indicative. Neither verse says "if we say that we do not sin."

    And then, proceeding to chapter 2

    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    An interesting claim that - people who know Christ keep his commandments.

    And then in chapter 3 (Just in case people make the mistake of thinking "keeping the commandments" doesn't involve "not sinning.")

    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    Repeated and reinforced through verses 9 and 10
    And yet you continue to sin, just like the rest of us. Everyone does. Even Paul did. So either none of us are saved, or your interpretation of scripture is off base.

  2. #42
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Laughing.

    Um..... sometimes I just have to shake my head and smile when you post stuff.
    I think he likes to be contrary just to be contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet you continue to sin, just like the rest of us. Everyone does. Even Paul did. So either none of us are saved, or your interpretation of scripture is off base.
    Right. Dr Stephen S. Smalley points out that earlier in 1st John, John is likely referring to a heretical split that suggested either that Christians can't sin, or that if they do, sinning is no big deal.

    Source: 1, 2, and 3 John, Volume 51: Revised by Dr Stephen S. Smalley

    Earlier in his letter (2:6-10) the writer has been resisting the heretical members of his church who claimed to be without sin. While such opponents are not forgotten in the present section of 1 John, the concentration has now shifted to the orthodox adherents of John's community. Perhaps with the teaching of the Fourth Gospel in mind, the latter are reminded of the fact that in Christ, and by living constantly in him, sin may be overcome (cf. 2:1a!). Potentially the genuine believer is dedicated to right behavior, rather than to sin (cf. 2:29; 3:7).

    Nevertheless, in Luther's phrase, the Christian is at one and the same time "justified and a sinner" (simul justus et peccator). Like Jesus (and through him), he is able not to sin. But (unlike Jesus) there are times when he falls; when he is not able not to sin. It is the potential state of sinlessness which John has in view throughout the present passage; and the actual occasions of sinfulness which he treats in chapters 1 and 2. But even the absolute ("indicative") pronouncements of 3:6, 9 (those in Christ do not sin, those born of God cannot do so) carry with them an implicit imperative. The Christian must not (as a settled policy) sin; on the contrary, he must behave with obedience and love and faith (vv 7-10).

    Schnackenburg (286) adds to this discussion a useful reminder that the eschatological tension between the "is now" and the "not yet," typical of John's theology of salvation, is probably relevant at this point. Thus, for the writer of 1 John, the tension between perfection and sin still exists (cf. 3:2). The Christian can be sinless inasfar as he shares now the life of eternity: by living in Christ, and by being spiritually reborn (vv 6, 9). But the completion of that process of perfection lies in the future; and this means that sin is still an ongoing habit, and that its necessary concomitant of forgiveness is equally a present experience (1:7, onward). Cf. further Bogart, Perfectionism, 43-44.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Ben Witherington notes (citing Colin Kruse) that there is much discussion on this passage among scholars, and that some scholars have thrown up their hands and have claimed John contradicts himself. Witherington thinks John is a bit too clever for that, and largely agrees with Smalley,

    Source: Letters and Homilies for Hellenized Christians: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on Titus, 1-2 Timothy and 1-3 John by Ben Witherington III

    I conclude that what is in view here is at least the following: (1) It is possible for a Christian to avoid acts of sin, avoid doing sin in a given situation, if he or she remains in Christ. The key is the remaining or abiding in the Sinless One. (2) Here, then, we have a summons to act according to what believers really are—remaining in and relying on Christ. (3) Since the author is talking about acts of sin, he is not talking about a continual state of perfection—that is, being without sin or not "having" sin. He is talking, rather, about a repeated choice not to sin, which requires a reliance on Christ, an abiding in him, in the hour of temptation or trial. The ability to avoid a given sinful deed is what the author means by resisting sin. It is not only a repeated matter of choice, but also an intermittent one, for the believer is not continually facing temptation. Although the Christian always can choose not to do so something sinful, in any given instance he or she may choose otherwise. The author seems to be viewing things from a moment-by-moment point of view, and he believes that the one who sins is not, in that moment, abiding in Christ. Indeed, when this becomes a pattern of behavior or a habit for a person, our author even asserts that such a person does not know God (or know God anymore).

    The basic distinction that our author makes in this sermon is not between two types of Christians or two types of perfection, but between having sin (i.e., having sinful inclinations), which requires ongoing purification, and doing sin (i.e., choosing to do particular acts of sin). Sinning is not a legitimate option for the Christian, though it sometimes happens when it could have been avoided. Our author believes that "greater is he who is in us" than the power of temptation or the work of the devil. This being so, acts of sin are not inevitable for the Christian; one can have victory over the temptation to do deeds of sin, one at a time. In any case, God's perfect love casts out fear and fear-based practices and cleanses one from inward sin and its inclination. Our author calls Christians to live life without excuses because he believes in the inner work and power of the Spirit, of the new birth, of the seed of God, and he believes that the work of the devil is no match for these things in a believer's life. Stephen Smalley puts it this way: "If God, whose nature remains in the Christian (3.9) and keeps him safe (5.18), can be said to protect the believer from habitual sin, why can he not preserve him as well from occasional sins?" Why, indeed, especially if one believes in an almighty God.

    Again it would also seem to come back to the issue of "abiding," and as Bede said long ago, "In quantem in eo manet in tantum non peccat," which means, "Insofar as he lives in Him, he does not sin." This does not amount to the doctrine of sinless perfection, precisely because the Christian is said in 1 John 1 to still battle sinful inclination—"they have sin" means that they have sinful inclinations still, and they "have sinned" as well and there is damage to still be repaired. And then too, one's "abiding" may wax and wane. The Beloved Disciple's position does, however amount to a view that goes well beyond, indeed against, Luther's simul justus et peccator. No, says the Beloved Disciple, the believer can no longer be fairly characterized as "sinner" on an ongoing basis, for that does not characterize the believer's behavior. And the purifying of the believer's attitudes, thoughts and fears is ongoing in such a powerful fashion that he or she is able in the given moment to avoid doing sin. There is victory over sin in the Christian life, moment by moment, temptation by temptation, as long as one abides in Christ. The proper term to characterize a Christian over the course of the spiritual journey is "child of God, born of God," not "sinner."

    © Copyright Original Source



    I realize tabibito has a low view of Biblical scholars, so this isn't really for him, but thought it might be helpful to others.

  3. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  4. #43
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet you continue to sin, just like the rest of us. Everyone does. Even Paul did. So either none of us are saved, or your interpretation of scripture is off base.
    Even Paul did? Ah yes, Romans 7:14 and on, where he says that he cannot stop sinning because he is still in the flesh, still a slave to sin ... Oddly, in chapter 8 he says that there are some who are not in the flesh, and that they (at least can) stop sinning.

    Rom 8:3 God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


    Rom 8:7 the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

    Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if through the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.

    But there's that whole "When we were in the flesh thing" at Romans 7:5 - which of course couldn't possibly include Paul, because in Rom 7:14 he says "we know the law is spiritual, but I am in the flesh, having been sold to sin." (as previously noted)
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  5. #44
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Even Paul did? Ah yes, Romans 7:14 and on, where he says that he cannot stop sinning because he is still in the flesh, still a slave to sin ... Oddly, in chapter 8 he says that there are some who are not in the flesh, and that they (at least can) stop sinning.

    Rom 8:3 God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


    Rom 8:7 the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

    Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if through the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.

    But there's that whole "When we were in the flesh thing" at Romans 7:5 - which of course couldn't possibly include Paul, because in Rom 7:14 he says "we know the law is spiritual, but I am in the flesh, having been sold to sin." (as previously noted)
    And yet despite all of your protesting, you still sin, as do all Christians. So either you are wrong, or none of us are saved.

  6. Amen Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  7. #45
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    Now we may sin more accidentally on purpose, but we still sin. We just act or speak without thinking.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Now we may sin more accidentally on purpose, but we still sin. We just act or speak without thinking.
    how do you accidentally sin?

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    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
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    Carelessly act on autopilot when tired or sick? But does it count as din if you were not intentionally rebelling against God?
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Carelessly act on autopilot when tired or sick? But does it count as din if you were not intentionally rebelling against God?
    I think all sin has to be intentional or it isn't sin.

    For example, if you bumped into a shelf at the store and something fell into your purse, and you never noticed it, did you sin? It was "stolen" but you had no idea and you didn't do it intentionally so it wasn't a sin. Now if you found out about it later and didn't return it, THEN it becomes a sin because you are keeping something that doesn't belong to you intentionally.

  11. #49
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I think all sin has to be intentional or it isn't sin.

    For example, if you bumped into a shelf at the store and something fell into your purse, and you never noticed it, did you sin? It was "stolen" but you had no idea and you didn't do it intentionally so it wasn't a sin. Now if you found out about it later and didn't return it, THEN it becomes a sin because you are keeping something that doesn't belong to you intentionally.
    Even being tempted to sin isn't sin unless you act on it.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  12. #50
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Carelessly act on autopilot when tired or sick? But does it count as din if you were not intentionally rebelling against God?
    Old Testament to the rescue on this one: You haven't sinned until you become aware that it is a sin. Then it needs to be repented, same as any other sin.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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