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Pro-choice distortion

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Wow, what an admission!
    “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
      Until they are viable they are a part of the mother’s body...
      You are scientifically illiterate.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Lemme add one more .... what a freakin' baby!

        I just get so tired of your bloviating, and would like a plain simple answer without the kabuki dance.
        I have given it several times (despite MMs assertion) and will be happy to do so again, if/when I have the impression there is someone on the other end that is actually listening. You're clearly still in react/provoke mode. I don't see the point.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Until they are viable they are a part of the mother’s body and the mother has rights as to what to do with her own body.
          Connected to.... agreed
          Dependent on....agreed

          Part of?

          I don't see how you make that particular case.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            So, yes, I agree - the "Pro-Choice" moniker is pure distortion.
            It simply means that women can make the decision, of whether or not to carry through with a pregnancy, or not, for herself. You want a law established that doesn't give women, or families, that choice, you're pro-no-choice.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              It simply means that women can make the decision, of whether or not to carry through with a pregnancy, or not, for herself.
              Leaving ZERO choice to the baby. Not pro-choice.

              I'll ignore the rest of your moronic attempt at mind reading.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I have given it several times (despite MMs assertion) and will be happy to do so again, if/when I have the impression there is someone on the other end that is actually listening. You're clearly still in react/provoke mode. I don't see the point.
                I'm sorry I've insulted your delicate sensibilities. Lemme know when you get over the vapors.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  There is some effort here, I know, but it is overshadowed by "the war." Each side distrusts the other, so the efforts aren't going to penetrate very far into the public sphere. Furthermore, if there is going to be compromise, it is here that it must happen. One way to avoid unwanted pregnancies, for example, is to make contraception more available and not seen as a "bad" thing. At the same time, abstinence is also a way to reduce unwanted pregnancies. For the two sides to arrive at a compromise - bring BOTH options to the table in a concerted effort - rather than warring an undermining one another's messages, would be progress.
                  You have no idea what Christians are doing in this area specifically carp. This is just you dismissing an opposing view again in order to pretend to take the high ground.


                  That is not what you are acknowledging. You would be acknowledging that a woman does have a right to make medical decisions about her own body without government intervention. SO the message would look like this:

                  Look, I recognize and understand that a woman has the right to make her own medical decisions without government intervention. After all - I'm not particularly excited about government intervention in our personal space! But I also believe a fetus is a life. I know you don't believe that, but because I do, it creates a horrific situation. I'd like to explore ways we can craft solutions that respect your concern about freedom of choice while also respecting my concern about the life of what I see as an unborn child.
                  And what would that solution look like Carp? I do respect a woman's (or man's) right to make their own medical decisions. Without government intervention. But that doesn't extend to taking another life. When you take another life, that becomes a legal issue and a moral one.


                  In sales, this is called "Drop the Rope." Instead of continuing to haul on your end of the line, committing both sides to a perpetual tug-of-war, you let go of your end and acknowledge the concerns of the other side - then ask for consideration of the things you are trying to put forward. It's amazing how often it works.
                  Again, you have offered no real solutions, merely complain about how we are handling it now. Give us a solution or just shut up about it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Again, you have offered no real solutions, merely complain about how we are handling it now. Give us a solution or just shut up about it.
                    It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      I don't. That's pretty much the point. Your philosophy is not going to shift to theirs. Theirs is not going to shift to yours. It hasn't for 50 years. There is no reason to think it is going to for the next 50 years. This is what you folks are not hearing, as best I can tell. Any attempt to shift the philosophy of the other side is most likely doomed to failure and will only result in prolonging the conflict and more deaths.

                      That is why solutions must engage BEFORE the conflict arises. Once there is a pregnancy - the conflict is inevitable. The only option I can think of is to make carry/adopt more attractive than abort.
                      There is no conflict before the pregnancy. The only thing we can do is try to educate them that there is risk and responsibility to having sex. And we do that. And we are called prudes and old fashioned and mocked for it. So you have just admitted there is no common ground and neither side is going to change their minds, so there is no compromise.

                      I think the only way is to convince them that science shows that a human life begins at conception. But there are those out there who just don't care (like starlight) and are perfectly fine with ending a human life for convenience. What do you do about them?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.
                        He tends to do that a lot. Well I will let him have his little thread, but I am not going to engage him there. It is just more of his passive-aggressivness.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            There is no conflict before the pregnancy.
                            Exactly. That's pretty much the point.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            The only thing we can do is try to educate them that there is risk and responsibility to having sex. And we do that. And we are called prudes and old fashioned and mocked for it. So you have just admitted there is no common ground and neither side is going to change their minds, so there is no compromise.
                            No - I have not.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I think the only way is to convince them that science shows that a human life begins at conception.
                            50 years suggests you will not succeed.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            But there are those out there who just don't care (like starlight) and are perfectly fine with ending a human life for convenience. What do you do about them?
                            They are comparatively rare - so I don't waste a great deal of time on it. It's not worth the effort. Their position will never hold sway.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              You have no idea what Christians are doing in this area specifically carp.
                              So, out of curiosity, how do you conclude what I "know?"

                              BTW - the crisis pregnancy center I volunteer at is a Christian center. There are few of them that are not, at least around here..

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              And what would that solution look like Carp?
                              Again - I don't have answers. My point is a meta point about the nature of the discussion - not a claim to have "the solution." In the other thread I started however, Guaca put forward a couple of ideas that are the kind of thinking I'm talking about.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              I do respect a woman's (or man's) right to make their own medical decisions. Without government intervention.
                              Then there is common ground.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              But that doesn't extend to taking another life. When you take another life, that becomes a legal issue and a moral one.
                              Since the other side doesn't agree it's a life - this argument is doomed to go nowhere. It never has - and does not show signs of ever succeeding. SO it's a simple choice:

                              1) Keep pounding your head on a wall that will not move.
                              2) Find another way.

                              I advocate for (2.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Again, you have offered no real solutions, merely complain about how we are handling it now. Give us a solution or just shut up about it.
                              I doubt there is "a" solution. I suspect the best approach will be a combination of pieces working together. But my point is not to claim I have the solution - it is to call for a change to how the discussion is engaged.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                                Originally posted by Sparko
                                So you have just admitted there is no common ground and neither side is going to change their minds, so there is no compromise.
                                No - I have not.



                                Originally posted by Carp
                                That's pretty much the point. Your philosophy is not going to shift to theirs. Theirs is not going to shift to yours. It hasn't for 50 years. There is no reason to think it is going to for the next 50 years. This is what you folks are not hearing, as best I can tell. Any attempt to shift the philosophy of the other side is most likely doomed to failure and will only result in prolonging the conflict and more deaths.

                                Comment

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