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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Metrics.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      1% of what?
      1% of the number of people I confront at least stop, think, and tell me they agree. How many of them go on to actually put that into action I do not know. Many of them are online - like you. Most of the ones in my personal life I know about actually turn it into action, changing how they talk, challenging others, and adjusting their votes to align. My hope is the same for the online folks.

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      And how many children die while you're battling it out?
      They are going to die if I do nothing. They are going to die if I spend time trying to awaken people to the futility of the war. I wish I could snap my fingers and make it not so. My hope is that the tide of ending the war will swing...and progress will be made towards solutions. I am convinced that if everyone stays devoted to the current war - the killing will never end.

      So I cannot save more than the handful on a day-to-day basis - doing the same kinds of things you are doing. My hope is I can be part of stemming the tide somewhere down the line, if enough people take up the "end the war" cause.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        They are going to die if I do nothing. They are going to die if I spend time trying to awaken people to the futility of the war.
        So PLEASE stop this silly "children are dying while we're bickering" narrative, OK?

        I wish I could snap my fingers and make it not so. My hope is that the tide of ending the war will swing...and progress will be made towards solutions. I am convinced that if everyone stays devoted to the current war - the killing will never end.

        So I cannot save more than the handful on a day-to-day basis - doing the same kinds of things you are doing. My hope is I can be part of stemming the tide somewhere down the line, if enough people take up the "end the war" cause.
        Carpe - this is like arguing that Israel and their enemies should compromise. The enemy has declared that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth and every Jew must die. How does one compromise with that? Israel already gave up a bunch of land - even some of which was gained in a war where they were attacked from all sides. So, would the enemies of Israel be satisfied with, what .... killing 50% of the Jews? 73.9%? What percent of dead Jews would be a sufficient compromise to her enemies?

        Likewise, If somebody sincerely believes that abortion kills a living human being - and science is actually on their side in this, particularly in later term - how does somebody compromise? Is there a maximum number of abortions that should be acceptable? Is there a magic time period in the development of the baby there it's OK at that point to kill the baby, but 10 seconds later it's not acceptable?

        You're about as likely to "end this war" as you are the war in the middle east.

        And, bless your heart, I really have a hard time believing you're winning people over on this topic with your style of 'convincing'.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          So PLEASE stop this silly "children are dying while we're bickering" narrative, OK?
          No. You continue to miss the point, CP. The pointless bickering the the bickering that has been going on for 50+ years: when does a human life begin. The pointless bickering is the bickering that is PART of the war. It is not the bickering in and of itself - it is the continuation of the same tired hackneyed inflammatory statements that I was putting on posters in the 1970s - and are still on those same posters today.

          If it takes an argument to get someone to see the futility of THAT argument - so be it.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Carpe - this is like arguing that Israel and their enemies should compromise. The enemy has declared that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth and every Jew must die. How does one compromise with that? Israel already gave up a bunch of land - even some of which was gained in a war where they were attacked from all sides. So, would the enemies of Israel be satisfied with, what .... killing 50% of the Jews? 73.9%? What percent of dead Jews would be a sufficient compromise to her enemies?

          Likewise, If somebody sincerely believes that abortion kills a living human being - and science is actually on their side in this, particularly in later term - how does somebody compromise? Is there a maximum number of abortions that should be acceptable? Is there a magic time period in the development of the baby there it's OK at that point to kill the baby, but 10 seconds later it's not acceptable?

          You're about as likely to "end this war" as you are the war in the middle east.
          As usual - a pretty bad analogy. If you frame the argument as unattainable, then you will attain nothing. The compromise is not between "every Jew must die" and "no Jew must die." Beneath those positions, there are philosophies. WHY does one side believe every Jew must die? What has happened to make them think such an outcome is necessary desirable? In exploring that, you will find actions taken by both sides that can become the basis for compromise. If you keep your attention on "every jew must die," then there is no room for compromise. If you look for underlying causes - then there is room.

          So too with abortion. The "it's not a human" versus "it is a human" will never ever be settled. You don't measure it the same way. You don't even begin to agree on the terms. And abortion will never ever end. It never has. It never will. The best we can do is to make it as rare as possible. To get to that, we also have to examine the underlying causes and address them. THERE is the room for compromise. Until people are willing to do that - there will be no progress. ANd so long as they are tossing out "blob of tissue" and you are hyper-sensitive to it, and you are tossing out "abortion mill" and they are hyper-sensitive to it - you aren't even beginning to look at the underlying problems.

          And I suspect - given the fact that you are an intelligent and often thoughtful man - some part of this as actually ringing a bell for you. If I'm right about that - then THAT is the progress you were asking about earlier.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          And, bless your heart, I really have a hard time believing you're winning people over on this topic with your style of 'convincing'.
          Your belief doesn't change the reality, CP. It's not GREAT success...but it is not zero. And it's better than any other approach I've tried. But it does require that I stumble on someone that has a degree of thoughtfulness to them. If they are just "devoted to the war," as so many are, then you are correct - I get nowhere.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            My twisted sense of humor...
            Do I not want to know? Because I don't like inappropriate humor!
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              Do I not want to know? Because I don't like inappropriate humor!
              I'll leave it to your imagination.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I'll leave it to your imagination.
                I'm not a Disney character!
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  I'm not a Disney character!
                  That's a bummer. They seem to have a LOT of fun!
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    That's a bummer. They seem to have a LOT of fun!
                    Donald duck has three nephews, and I thought you might be making a reference to that. Technically, there may be more, but if I counted those, I'd have to count my dad's sisters who died in infancy/early childhood as aunts. And my maternal grandmother also lost a few babies in utero. Yes, my parents are Baby Boomers which explains the higher death rate. Maybe? I don't know if they'll grow up instantly or over time, but I will see them someday in my worldview.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      They are going to die if I do nothing. They are going to die if I spend time trying to awaken people to the futility of the war. I wish I could snap my fingers and make it not so. My hope is that the tide of ending the war will swing...and progress will be made towards solutions. I am convinced that if everyone stays devoted to the current war - the killing will never end.

                      So I cannot save more than the handful on a day-to-day basis - doing the same kinds of things you are doing. My hope is I can be part of stemming the tide somewhere down the line, if enough people take up the "end the war" cause.
                      All this talk about finding compromise and solutions... and I haven't heard you explain what exactly you mean by that. If the pro life crowd are supposed to acknowledge a woman's "right" to have an abortion, and yet retain the belief that it is also immoral to do so, where does that leave us? Our only recourse is to show them that an embryo is in fact a individual human life with rights as sacred as the mother's. Hence our objection to the intentionally dehumanising term "blob of cells". Only when they see that you can simultaneously respect the mother's right to not have a child AND respect the child's right to live by placing the child for adoption, will we see progress. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: those on the pro life side absolutely respect the mother's right to not keep her child. If she wants to keep the child but can't afford to, she is to be given assistance to make it happen. How do you not see that we're respecting the rights of the mother AND the child? You keep calling us out for only respecting the child's rights but that is not what we're doing.
                      Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Donald duck has three nephews, and I thought you might be making a reference to that. Technically, there may be more, but if I counted those, I'd have to count my dad's sisters who died in infancy/early childhood as aunts. And my maternal grandmother also lost a few babies in utero. Yes, my parents are Baby Boomers which explains the higher death rate. Maybe? I don't know if they'll grow up instantly or over time, but I will see them someday in my worldview.
                        For your sake, I hope your worldview is the correct one.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          For your sake, I hope your worldview is the correct one.
                          If yours is correct, nothing matters! The universe winds down and dies a slow heat death if no one winds it back up.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                            All this talk about finding compromise and solutions... and I haven't heard you explain what exactly you mean by that. If the pro life crowd are supposed to acknowledge a woman's "right" to have an abortion, and yet retain the belief that it is also immoral to do so, where does that leave us?
                            I did not say, "a woman's right to have an abortion." I said, "a woman's right to make medical decisions," specifically those that entail her own body.

                            Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                            Our only recourse is to show them that an embryo is in fact a individual human life with rights as sacred as the mother's.
                            No. Framing the argument that way is nothing more than a continuation of the war. You have tried to convince the pro-choice crowd that "it's a human person" for 50+ years now with little/no progress. That war will never end because the two sides do not even agree on the underlying assumptions.

                            Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                            Hence our objection to the intentionally dehumanising term "blob of cells". Only when they see that you can simultaneously respect the mother's right to not have a child AND respect the child's right to live by placing the child for adoption, will we see progress.
                            Base on the last 50 years - that's not working. I don't see that changing anytime soon. So you can either keep pounding your head against that wall for another 50 years, and another 50+ million abortions (in the U.S.), or you can consider other approaches.

                            Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                            I've said this before, and I'll say it again: those on the pro life side absolutely respect the mother's right to not keep her child. If she wants to keep the child but can't afford to, she is to be given assistance to make it happen. How do you not see that we're respecting the rights of the mother AND the child? You keep calling us out for only respecting the child's rights but that is not what we're doing.
                            You are respecting the rights of the mother as YOU have framed them - and then expect them to just nod and acquiesce. You are NOT respecting their rights as THEY frame them. The starting place is to find the common ground.

                            1) The right you believe needs to be respected is: all human persons have the right to live. Framed that way, both sides can agree.
                            2) The right they believe needs to be respected is: an adult person has the right to make independent medical decisions about their own body/person.

                            I suspect neither side would argue with those general statements. The question is, how do we then approach solutions that respect BOTH of those rights as framed. It doesn't mater if they agree it's a human life or not. What I think matters is to tilt the conversation to (from the pro-lifer side, "I think this is a human life. As such, the whole idea of ending it is abhorrent to me. Is there any way we can find a solution that will preserve that life AND preserve your autonomy?"

                            The start to compromise and solution is acknowledging that the opposite side has valid concerns and valid fears. Right now - most of what I hear from each side is rampant disrespect for anyone with an opposing point of view.
                            Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-09-2019, 04:16 PM.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              If yours is correct, nothing matters! The universe winds down and dies a slow heat death if no one winds it back up.
                              Well, if my point of view is correct - then what matters is now and here. What matters is the quality with which I live my life - and the manner in which I live it. Once I am dead - that opportunity will be lost and what matters will matter to someone else.

                              As for the universe, well, we don't really know much about what will happen or has happened beyond a few scientific hypotheses and some mathematical models. What will be will be. It's above my pay grade.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                I did not say, "a woman's right to have an abortion." I said, "a woman's right to make medical decisions," specifically those that entail her own body....
                                And that, in NO WAY, has anything to do with abortion. We're not talking about whether she gets a boob job or tummy tuck - there's a second party (and often more) involved who doesn't get to vote.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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