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Thread: Pro-choice distortion

  1. #351
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Acknowledged in my previous post. As I said before, its somewhat akin to the people in Ireland volunteering at medical wards for those impacted by the violence, and then going out and joining the next anti-them riot.
    No. Not even close. Unless you want to accuse me and others of committing violence. When there IS violence committed against the abortionists, those of us who "volunteer at medical wards" are the first to loudly and clearly denounce the violence.

    This kind of dumb logic is simply one of the weapons you use in your own war, while pretending to be against the war.

    (and you mean Northern Ireland)
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    If there had been any "define life by heart beat or brain wave" in the pro-choice agenda there might have been some room for dialogue. At least in so far as a first pregnancy is involved anyway.
    Tab, if you don't think this is the case, then you have no been paying attention. There is not a unified voice from the pro-choice crowd. Some see the start of life at "heart beat." Some see it at "brainwaves." Some see it at "ability to feel pain." Some see it as "at the moment of birth." The list of variations is long.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Never true. It takes good will on both sides to establish peace. It only takes ill will on the part of one to destroy any chance of peace.
    They assume you are acting in "ill will" seeking to rob a woman of her ability to make her own medical decisions. You see them as acting in ill will, seeking to destroy a life. They use inflammatory language. You use inflammatory language. Tell me, Tab, that there is a "side" to this war that is not equally guilty of acting out of ill will or assuming the other side is.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I severely doubt that even the development of an artificial womb would be enough for some of the pro-choice crowd to allow that a foetus should be allowed to live.
    And your doubt feeds the war. Congratulations.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Acknowledged in my previous post. As I said before, its somewhat akin to the people in Ireland volunteering at medical wards for those impacted by the violence, and then going out and joining the next anti-them riot.



    The "other side" doesn't believe these are living people, so they are not doing anything they see to be wrong. So congratulations - you are saving onesies and twosies here and there and patting yourself on the back, all the while perpetuating an ongoing war that is killing hundreds of thousands per year. You aren't the ones doing the killing - you're just perpetuating the war in which the killing is done.
    You may have said this already, so I apologize if this is a repeat, but do you have an idea of how you would go about convincing people that "don't believe these are living people" that they are, or of how to move the point at which they would consider them living people earlier.

    As we see in the news with the Georgia heartbeat bill and earlier this year with the late term abortion ban uproar, there doesn't seem to be any willingness to even consider that the fetus has any sort of rights that supercede the mother's desires/rights at any time during the pregnancy.


    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  4. #354
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    No. Not even close. Unless you want to accuse me and others of committing violence. When there IS violence committed against the abortionists, those of us who "volunteer at medical wards" are the first to loudly and clearly denounce the violence.
    Not all who attend a riot commit physical violence, CP. In fact, many do not. They simply participate in the chants - the inflammatory language - the goading of others. And there IS violence from the pro-life crowd - though it is comparatively rare.

    You see the left as "committing violence" and it is all you can focus on. They do not see what they are doing as "violence" because they do not see it as an "individual human life." That is the part you perpetually refuse to acknowledge. Start from their assumptions and you end at their conclusions without contradiction. Start with your assumptions and you end at your conclusions without contradiction.

    You adamantly refuse to even look at the issues from their perspective, or consider that both sides might actually be comprised of good people trying to achieve a good ends. Instead - "they are bad." To them, you are just as bad. So - the war rages on...and you are part of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This kind of dumb logic is simply one of the weapons you use in your own war, while pretending to be against the war.

    (and you mean Northern Ireland)
    That you refuse to even consider or look at it does not make it "dumb" CP. And yes, I did mean Northern Ireland. Thanks for the clarification.

    There is a part of me that continues to hope for you, CP. I experience you as a reasonably honorable person (if somewhat devoted to some pretty unsupportable positions). I continue to hope that some part of you will look at yourself in the mirror and wonder, "am I really part of the problem?" I continue to hope that each time you get ready to toss out "abortion mill" and all of the other inflammatory rhetoric you so regularly use, you will begin to ask, "have I become part of the mob, inciting mob mentality?"

    I have not given up hope that you will eventually become part of the 1%. I realize the greater likelihood is that you will remain part of the 99% - but you can't blame a guy for hoping...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #355
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You may have said this already, so I apologize if this is a repeat, but do you have an idea of how you would go about convincing people that "don't believe these are living people" that they are, or of how to move the point at which they would consider them living people earlier.
    I wouldn't. That is the heart of the ongoing war, and that is never going to be resolved. I'd set it aside and attempt to shift the focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    As we see in the news with the Georgia heartbeat bill and earlier this year with the late term abortion ban uproar, there doesn't seem to be any willingness to even consider that the fetus has any sort of rights that supercede the mother's desires/rights at any time during the pregnancy.

    Jim
    Why is this surprising? There is no indication I have ever seen from the pro-life group that the rights of the woman to make her own medical decisions are worthy of respect, so why would you expect respect in return? And why would you expect that the rights of one person supersede the rights of another? Why do we not take the approach that both are rights worthy of respect, and use that as our starting point?

    AFAICT - the only possible approach to all of this is to look at what can be done BEFORE the unwanted pregnancy occurs. Once there is a pregnancy - the clash of rights is unavoidable. The only way to address THAT is to make birth/placement more attractive than abortion - and that has to be carefully done to avoid triggering the "cobra effect" (i.e., the law of unintended consequences).
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #356
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Not all who attend a riot commit physical violence, CP. In fact, many do not. They simply participate in the chants - the inflammatory language - the goading of others. And there IS violence from the pro-life crowd - though it is comparatively rare.
    Again, your assumption that the people who actually volunteer at the clinics are the same people who go to riots.... and when was the last riot at an abortion clinic, Carpe?

    You see the left as "committing violence" and it is all you can focus on.
    You're doing that mind reading thing again.

    They do not see what they are doing as "violence" because they do not see it as an "individual human life." That is the part you perpetually refuse to acknowledge. Start from their assumptions and you end at their conclusions without contradiction. Start with your assumptions and you end at your conclusions without contradiction.
    So, as long as I don't believe somebody is "human", I'm free to kill at will, and you'll have my back?

    You adamantly refuse to even look at the issues from their perspective, or consider that both sides might actually be comprised of good people trying to achieve a good ends. Instead - "they are bad." To them, you are just as bad. So - the war rages on...and you are part of it.
    You're doubling down on your weapons of war, Carpe --- you're doing that mind reading thing that you pretend to dislike. It's a false accusation to accuse me of thinking "they are bad". You are being incredibly disingenuous here.

    That you refuse to even consider or look at it does not make it "dumb" CP. And yes, I did mean Northern Ireland. Thanks for the clarification.
    You're as wrong for implicating me with your accusations as you were indicting the people of Ireland.

    There is a part of me that continues to hope for you, CP.
    I am SO very relieved!

    I experience you as a reasonably honorable person (if somewhat devoted to some pretty unsupportable positions). I continue to hope that some part of you will look at yourself in the mirror and wonder, "am I really part of the problem?" I continue to hope that each time you get ready to toss out "abortion mill" and all of the other inflammatory rhetoric you so regularly use, you will begin to ask, "have I become part of the mob, inciting mob mentality?"

    I have not given up hope that you will eventually become part of the 1%. I realize the greater likelihood is that you will remain part of the 99% - but you can't blame a guy for hoping...
    Carpe - what you've done, and I'm not sure you even recognize it, is justifying the one side as being innocent of the killing of babies on the grounds that they sincerely believe they're not killing human beings.

    Really? That's the best you can do?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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  8. #357
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Tab, if you don't think this is the case, then you have no been paying attention. There is not a unified voice from the pro-choice crowd. Some see the start of life at "heart beat." Some see it at "brainwaves." Some see it at "ability to feel pain." Some see it as "at the moment of birth." The list of variations is long.
    There may be an international factor here that I am not aware of. Most of the stuff here is "first trimester" is fair game. My personal take is, if it's too late for a morning after pill, it's too late.



    They assume you are acting in "ill will"
    Of course they do - I'm a CIS white male.
    seeking to rob a woman of her ability to make her own medical decisions.
    As good an excuse as any to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions. And I have a somewhat less hard-line attitude when a woman falls victim to a predator.
    You see them as acting in ill will, seeking to destroy a life.
    No - I see them as being deceived. Though I do allow that some might be the deceivers. But I also (could wrongly) remember that you aren't exactly tolerant of such people as young earth creationists or climate change deniers. Maybe we could throw anti-vaxers into the mix.
    They use inflammatory language. You use inflammatory language.
    Yes to the first, no to the second. I'll work against a person being duped if that person broaches the subject ... otherwise it is a no-go zone.
    Tell me, Tab, that there is a "side" to this war that is not equally guilty of acting out of ill will or assuming the other side is.
    For myself, answered already. WRT those who act out of ill will toward injustice? You yourself have said that is acceptable.



    And your doubt feeds the war. Congratulations.
    I doubt that too.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    There may be an international factor here that I am not aware of. Most of the stuff here is "first trimester" is fair game. My personal take is, if it's too late for a morning after pill, it's too late.
    Most people here too. Historically, we considered the baby a "person" after it had "quickened" (i.e., the first time the mother felt movement). In most societies, abortion up until that point was seen as perfectly normal - even for religious groups. It is only with the advent of modern science and the ability to look into the womb and map the entire gestation process that this has become such a significant issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Of course they do - I'm a CIS white male.

    As good an excuse as any to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions. And I have a somewhat less hard-line attitude when a woman falls victim to a predator.
    And the assumption from the right is that "avoiding responsibility" is what it is all about. For some, I'm sure that is true. I can assure you it is not true for all. I'm not even sure it is true for most. That is another form of "inflammatory language" designed to paint the "other side" in as negative a light as possible, and perpetuate the war. If it's any consolation, they do the same thing to the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    No - I see them as being deceived. Though I do allow that some might be the deceivers. But I also (could wrongly) remember that you aren't exactly tolerant of such people as young earth creationists or climate change deniers. Maybe we could throw anti-vaxers into the mix.
    I am not sure how YECs or climate change deniers became part of the equation. Yes, I think both are wrong and ignoring basic scientific facts. The former are largely irrelevant to any part of my day-to-day life. The latter I oppose politically so we can (hopefully) achieve some degree of progress on changing the current course of things climate-wise. I don't know what an anti-vaxer is. I'm not sure how any of that changes anything I've said about the abortion situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Yes to the first, no to the second. I'll work against a person being duped if that person broaches the subject ... otherwise it is a no-go zone.
    I don't know what the latter statement is - but are you seriously claiming that the pro-life group does not use inflammatory language? Perhaps you think you are not doing so?

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    For myself, answered already. WRT those who act out of ill will toward injustice? You yourself have said that is acceptable.
    Where on earth have I ever suggested it is acceptable to act with "ill will" towards injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I doubt that too.
    You are free to, Tab, but if you are not part of ending the war and moving to systemic solutions - then you are part of the war and part of the problem.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #359
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Again, your assumption that the people who actually volunteer at the clinics are the same people who go to riots.... and when was the last riot at an abortion clinic, Carpe?
    Irrelevant - I did not say there were riots at abortion clinics. I was making an analogy. The "mob mentality" in the abortion debate is happening in a lot of arenas: online, in front of abortion clinics (have you ever been there when people are screaming in the faces of young women entering the clinic - calling them "murders" and "baby killers?"), in the press, and anywhere else the war can be waged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You're doing that mind reading thing again.
    No - I was responding to the things you have said here and elsewhere. They are killing - you are saving lives. Killing is, last I checked, an act of violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, as long as I don't believe somebody is "human", I'm free to kill at will, and you'll have my back?
    So long as there is a reasonable explanation for why you think "X is not human," I will give you the benefit of the doubt for being an honest person. So if we have a discussion about a person who has no brain activity but has a functioning brainstem and is breathing on their own, and you argue for feeding to stop because the "person" is gone and will not be back, I'm not going to paint you as a "killer" because you have that view - even if I believe the person should be supported so long as they have a heartbeat and draw breath. Sometimes - people of good conscience can have differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You're doubling down on your weapons of war, Carpe --- you're doing that mind reading thing that you pretend to dislike. It's a false accusation to accuse me of thinking "they are bad". You are being incredibly disingenuous here.
    Then somehow you are achieving "they kill babies" but also simultaneously think "they are not bad." Your language betrays you, CP. I don't need to read your mind. Your inflammatory language, condescending comments about pro-choice people, and various things you have said reflect your position. After all - you're saving children and they are killing them - right? But they're not bad? How exactly does that work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You're as wrong for implicating me with your accusations as you were indicting the people of Ireland.
    The people of Northern Ireland were engaged in a long term war between two religious factions. The analogy is apt. The war between pro-lifers and pro-choicers is almost exactly the same kind of war. Each side wraps themselves in righteous indignation - pointing to the other side and accusing them of being at fault. Neither side was willing to look at their own choices/actions and engaging in a little self-reflection.

    That's pretty much what I see happening here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I am SO very relieved!

    Carpe - what you've done, and I'm not sure you even recognize it, is justifying the one side as being innocent of the killing of babies on the grounds that they sincerely believe they're not killing human beings.

    Really? That's the best you can do?
    No - that's all you've heard. But that's not all I've done. Someday, perhaps, you'll be able to see past yourself to see that.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #360
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - that's all you've heard. But that's not all I've done. Someday, perhaps, you'll be able to see past yourself to see that.
    Oh, the Iron E!

    Here's exactly what you said...

    You see the left as "committing violence" and it is all you can focus on. They do not see what they are doing as "violence" because they do not see it as an "individual human life." That is the part you perpetually refuse to acknowledge. Start from their assumptions and you end at their conclusions without contradiction. Start with your assumptions and you end at your conclusions without contradiction.
    Try that in court some day. "But, yer honor --- he was a low life scumbag jackass, not a human being!"

    (That's how Islam extremists justify killing Jews, by the way)


    (Come to think of it, I think Texas is the only state in the Union where an acceptable defense for homicide is "Yer Honor - he just needed killin'!")
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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