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Thread: Pro-choice distortion

  1. #371
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    This is just carp's way of denouncing us while pretending to have the high ground, while not actually having any ground.


    Carp - you guys are bad, continuing the war. we need to find a solution.

    us - what's your solution?

    Carp - I don't have one but you guys are bad.
    And the other side gets a pass cause they don't believe the babies they are killing are human beings.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. #372
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I wouldn't. That is the heart of the ongoing war, and that is never going to be resolved. I'd set it aside and attempt to shift the focus.



    Why is this surprising? There is no indication I have ever seen from the pro-life group that the rights of the woman to make her own medical decisions are worthy of respect, so why would you expect respect in return? And why would you expect that the rights of one person supersede the rights of another? Why do we not take the approach that both are rights worthy of respect, and use that as our starting point?
    Well, acknowledging there is debate over when this occurs, once you are dealing with two people, they each have equal rights, and neither of them has the right to kill the other. So If at any point we concede the fetus is a human person, then after that point, the mother's desires to live free of obligation to the child do not supersede the child's right to life. So she may chose to adopt, but she legally couldn't chose to kill once the fetus is recognized as a human person. That is, in fact, the crux of the impasse. Pro-life typically deems the fetus a human person from conception. Pro-choice avoids classifying the fetus as a person for the entire term of the pregnancy, up to and including actual birth (there are stories of post birth abortion, but that is illegal even if it occurs).

    AFAICT - the only possible approach to all of this is to look at what can be done BEFORE the unwanted pregnancy occurs. Once there is a pregnancy - the clash of rights is unavoidable. The only way to address THAT is to make birth/placement more attractive than abortion - and that has to be carefully done to avoid triggering the "cobra effect" (i.e., the law of unintended consequences).
    Changing the attitude toward abortion to favor adoption, coupled with attitudes/practices that are effective at reducing unwanted pregnancy would be a big help in terms of reducing the number of abortions. But we have too many conflicting messages. It's like #metoo, which crucifies men that might have accidentally (or on purpose) in a weak moment touched a women when she didn't want him too, OTOH the net crawls with porn that encourages and glorifies the opposite. A good bit of our music and entertainment encourages behavior that produces babies before one is ready. But we tell kids not to have babies before they are ready. It's pretty messed up.

    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  3. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  4. #373
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Worth mentioning again, cause it gets lost in the fog of war.....

    World's biggest abortion provider admits it exists for abortion

    Pro-life organizations are "thanking" Planned Parenthood's newest leader for confirming what really isn't secret to anyone paying attention.

    Planned Parenthood's new president is Dr. Leana Wen, who has enjoyed weeks of fawning media interviews since taking the helm in November.

    She was apparently unhappy, however, with a Buzzfeed headline that read, "Planned Parenthood's new president wants to focus on non-abortion health care."


    wen.jpg
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  5. #374
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    I see that Alabama is bidding to be the rape and incest baby capital of the USA.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  6. #375
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And the other side gets a pass cause they don't believe the babies they are killing are human beings.
    They are “human” certainly. But they are not viable beings until 20+ weeks. In fact, the vast majority of abortions (89%) are performed within the first 12 weeks, well before the viability of the fetus..
    Last edited by Tassman; 05-15-2019 at 12:22 AM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I believe the growing fetus is a human being. Ergo, I believe they are killing children and are not "innocent." But I do also know that people can sometimes do bad things without malice or intent to do harm. So I set aside what I think in order to try and see the position from their side. That looks like this:

    If I do not believe the fetus is a living human being, then there is no killing involved. What remains is a large group of people trying to impose their medical/religious beliefs on adult women who are not criminals using the government as their agency for doing so. Since I honestly believe there is no life involved, the medical rights of the woman are inviolate, and I end up being "pro-choice."


    I don't agree with them. I don't want abortion to continue. But I make an effort to understand them. Once I understand them, I ask myself, "what is the likelihood that I am going to convince them it is actually a life?" History tells me that there are 50 years of that war behind us with NO advancement on that front, so the most likely thing is that continuing that war will produce exactly the same result for the next 50 years - with millions more deaths.
    I wonder how many other evils in the world you can justify with that kind of thinking?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #377
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    They are “human” certainly.
    Wow, what an admission!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  9. #378
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    They are “human” certainly. But they are not viable beings until 20+ weeks.
    So what you're saying is that the best place for a developing human life is in its mother's uterus. So let's fight to keep them there until they are viable.

    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #379
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And, once again, you're doing that mind reader thing you pretend to hate - AND - make a goofy statement in the process. How does "fighting for the ones who can not defend themselves" condemn millions to death over the next 50 years, Mr. Chamberlain? AND, you're building a false dichotomy.
    Not mind reading - and not a false dichotomy. I point to history to suggest the most likely outcome. Compare the arguments from 50 years ago with the arguments from today. There is almost no difference. Same claims - same posters - same speeches. About the only change is nuances of science that have emerged since then - none of which has altered the arguments because the pro-choice people don't depend 100% on science for their definition - they also dip into philosophy.

    And while there has been some reduction in abortions, little of it can be attributed to any significant change in laws, because the anti-abortion laws continually get struck down. Even if the right succeeds and getting Roe vs. Wade struck down, it will not end the battle. The left will rally, women and men alike across the country will be outraged at "government intrusion into medical-decision making" and they will work until it overturns again. The women can stand and do battle and be seen and vote - the fetus cannot.

    The Republican party is graying at a significantly faster rate than democrats:

    In 2017, 57 percent of Republicans were age 50 or older, that age group made up only 39 percent of the party in 1997, an increase of 16 points. Democrats have gotten grayer as well, but only by 5 percentage points — 47 percent now, versus 42 percent 20 years ago.
    source

    Republicans (and independents that lean Republican) that are behind in almost all demographics (except white and/or non-college educated men), but most notably in by age. Millennial and Gen-X and significantly more liberal-leaning, Boomers are at a dead heat, and the elderly lean Republican. And women lean strongly towards the liberal/democrat view and currently outnumber men in the U.S. Those numbers should give any party pause.

    The simple reality is, even if you win a few skirmishes here and there, the odds are significant that you're going to predominately be on the losing side of the war, and kids will continue to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Three strikes - you're OUTTA HERE!
    Hardly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Carpe, you rag on me for my "bad analogies", yet you come up with this horrible analogy to "the Troubles" of Northern Ireland.
    The analogy is actually sound - both conflicts involved intransigent people on both sides continually blaming the other side for the conflict. Both conflicts involve people on both sides painting those on the other side as "the bad ones doing bad things." Both conflicts involve people on both sides adamantly unwilling to take a moment to examine the issue from the other perspective.

    There are also differences. That's why we call it an "analogy" rather than a "simulation" or "copy." Of course they are not "the same." If they were - it wouldn't be an analogy. You apparently want to focus on the differences to say "not the same" instead of focusing on the points of commonality that are the basis for the analogy. That comes as no surprise. So far, you have shown no willingness to even consider the opposing viewpoint - so why would you consider this?

    I continue to hold out hope for you, CP. But I may well be wrong. Your deeply rooted conservative convictions, which you regularly express and regular mock those who do not share them (here, anyway) may well prevent you from seeing anything I have to say as valid. I guess time will tell.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #380
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And the other side gets a pass cause they don't believe the babies they are killing are human beings.
    You are putting words in my mouth, CP. I thought you were better than that. I expect it from Sparko, Rogue, and MM - it is their signature move. It's so much their signature move that I largely don't even bother responding to them anymore when they use it. It's a waste of time. But I don't expect this from you.

    At no point did I say "the other side gets a pass." Understanding the other side is not the same as excusing them. Understanding the reality of a situation is not a claim that the situation is just. In a just world, IMO, there would be no abortion.

    Nor did I say "you are bad." What I said was, those who seek to perpetuate the war are not seeking systemic solutions, so they are part of the problem. That is true for both sides.

    You see me posing this argument here...and do not see the arguments made to the pro-choicers, so you apparently see me as "defending them" and "repudiating you." That view is false and skewed. I defend no one in this battle. BOTH sides bear responsibility for its continuation.

    Ironically, I get pretty much the same reaction from the pro-choicers, only they see me as defending and excusing you.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-15-2019 at 06:05 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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