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Thread: Pro-choice distortion

  1. #491
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.
    He tends to do that a lot. Well I will let him have his little thread, but I am not going to engage him there. It is just more of his passive-aggressivness.

  2. Amen mossrose, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  3. #492
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  4. #493
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    There is no conflict before the pregnancy.
    Exactly. That's pretty much the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The only thing we can do is try to educate them that there is risk and responsibility to having sex. And we do that. And we are called prudes and old fashioned and mocked for it. So you have just admitted there is no common ground and neither side is going to change their minds, so there is no compromise.
    No - I have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I think the only way is to convince them that science shows that a human life begins at conception.
    50 years suggests you will not succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But there are those out there who just don't care (like starlight) and are perfectly fine with ending a human life for convenience. What do you do about them?
    They are comparatively rare - so I don't waste a great deal of time on it. It's not worth the effort. Their position will never hold sway.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #494
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You have no idea what Christians are doing in this area specifically carp.
    So, out of curiosity, how do you conclude what I "know?"

    BTW - the crisis pregnancy center I volunteer at is a Christian center. There are few of them that are not, at least around here..

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And what would that solution look like Carp?
    Again - I don't have answers. My point is a meta point about the nature of the discussion - not a claim to have "the solution." In the other thread I started however, Guaca put forward a couple of ideas that are the kind of thinking I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I do respect a woman's (or man's) right to make their own medical decisions. Without government intervention.
    Then there is common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But that doesn't extend to taking another life. When you take another life, that becomes a legal issue and a moral one.
    Since the other side doesn't agree it's a life - this argument is doomed to go nowhere. It never has - and does not show signs of ever succeeding. SO it's a simple choice:

    1) Keep pounding your head on a wall that will not move.
    2) Find another way.

    I advocate for (2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Again, you have offered no real solutions, merely complain about how we are handling it now. Give us a solution or just shut up about it.
    I doubt there is "a" solution. I suspect the best approach will be a combination of pieces working together. But my point is not to claim I have the solution - it is to call for a change to how the discussion is engaged.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #495
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko
    So you have just admitted there is no common ground and neither side is going to change their minds, so there is no compromise.
    No - I have not.



    Quote Originally Posted by Carp
    That's pretty much the point. Your philosophy is not going to shift to theirs. Theirs is not going to shift to yours. It hasn't for 50 years. There is no reason to think it is going to for the next 50 years. This is what you folks are not hearing, as best I can tell. Any attempt to shift the philosophy of the other side is most likely doomed to failure and will only result in prolonging the conflict and more deaths.

  7. #496
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.
    Yes - I created a new thread which, hopefully, can be engaged in without the rancor. My other alternative was to simply disconnect from the discussion.

    I don't know if that one will be any more successful - but it was worth the shot.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #497
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes - that is what I said. It does not translate to "no common ground." It translates to neither side will convince the other about when life begins. So other common ground needs to be sought. Other common ground exists. For example (from the other thread):

    1) Adoptions need to be made easier and more affordable (perhaps subsidize the industry?)
    2) A campaign for parents talking to kids about sex is needed (studies show that unwanted pregnancies drop precipitously when this happens).

    Not sure if any others will be forthcoming, but generally I think both sides would agree that "unwanted pregnancies" are (by definition) not desirable. Tackle that - and you have common ground.

    I'm sure there are more examples if we think about what is possible, instead of perpetually focusing on what is not.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #498
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes - that is what I said. It does not translate to "no common ground." It translates to neither side will convince the other about when life begins. So other common ground needs to be sought. Other common ground exists. For example (from the other thread):

    1) Adoptions need to be made easier and more affordable (perhaps subsidize the industry?)
    2) A campaign for parents talking to kids about sex is needed (studies show that unwanted pregnancies drop precipitously when this happens).

    Not sure if any others will be forthcoming, but generally I think both sides would agree that "unwanted pregnancies" are (by definition) not desirable. Tackle that - and you have common ground.

    I'm sure there are more examples if we think about what is possible, instead of perpetually focusing on what is not.
    Way to selectively choose one word out of what I said and meant. I said that according to you there was not going to be any compromise because neither side will change their stance. That is what you said.

    1. Cheaper adoptions would not convince women to give their children up for adoption. They are not the ones paying for the adoption. It costs them nothing to put their child up for adoption. So how would that convince any woman not to abort? And there is already financial and social support for pregnant women to help them afford to either keep their baby or go through the pregnancy and then put it up for adoption. That is what crisis pregnancy centers do. It's like you don't even know what Christians and Prolife people are doing out there and just choosing to pretend they are only "being mean" to pregnant women so you can burn your little straw man and act all sanctimonious.


    2. So you think parents should teach children that sex has risks and consequences? What do you suppose families do now? Especially traditional families.

  10. #499
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Way to selectively choose one word out of what I said and meant.
    What word do you think I singled out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I said that according to you there was not going to be any compromise because neither side will change their stance. That is what you said.
    To complete what I said, you need to add "about when a human person begins."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    1. Cheaper adoptions would not convince women to give their children up for adoption. They are not the ones paying for the adoption. It costs them nothing to put their child up for adoption. So how would that convince any woman not to abort? And there is already financial and social support for pregnant women to help them afford to either keep their baby or go through the pregnancy and then put it up for adoption. That is what crisis pregnancy centers do. It's like you don't even know what Christians and Prolife people are doing out there and just choosing to pretend they are only "being mean" to pregnant women so you can burn your little straw man and act all sanctimonious.

    2. So you think parents should teach children that sex has risks and consequences? What do you suppose families do now? Especially traditional families.
    No claim was made that this would solve the abortion issue completely, Sparko. What it does is change the discussion to "what CAN we do that has a chance of impacting abortions significantly?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #500
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes - I created a new thread which, hopefully, can be engaged in without the rancor. My other alternative was to simply disconnect from the discussion.

    I don't know if that one will be any more successful - but it was worth the shot.
    Believe me, I'm walking on egg shells in that thread so as to attempt not to upset anybody's sensibilities.
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