Originally posted by Cow Poke
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post1% of what?
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd how many children die while you're battling it out?
So I cannot save more than the handful on a day-to-day basis - doing the same kinds of things you are doing. My hope is I can be part of stemming the tide somewhere down the line, if enough people take up the "end the war" cause.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThey are going to die if I do nothing. They are going to die if I spend time trying to awaken people to the futility of the war.
I wish I could snap my fingers and make it not so. My hope is that the tide of ending the war will swing...and progress will be made towards solutions. I am convinced that if everyone stays devoted to the current war - the killing will never end.
So I cannot save more than the handful on a day-to-day basis - doing the same kinds of things you are doing. My hope is I can be part of stemming the tide somewhere down the line, if enough people take up the "end the war" cause.
Likewise, If somebody sincerely believes that abortion kills a living human being - and science is actually on their side in this, particularly in later term - how does somebody compromise? Is there a maximum number of abortions that should be acceptable? Is there a magic time period in the development of the baby there it's OK at that point to kill the baby, but 10 seconds later it's not acceptable?
You're about as likely to "end this war" as you are the war in the middle east.
And, bless your heart, I really have a hard time believing you're winning people over on this topic with your style of 'convincing'.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo PLEASE stop this silly "children are dying while we're bickering" narrative, OK?
If it takes an argument to get someone to see the futility of THAT argument - so be it.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCarpe - this is like arguing that Israel and their enemies should compromise. The enemy has declared that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth and every Jew must die. How does one compromise with that? Israel already gave up a bunch of land - even some of which was gained in a war where they were attacked from all sides. So, would the enemies of Israel be satisfied with, what .... killing 50% of the Jews? 73.9%? What percent of dead Jews would be a sufficient compromise to her enemies?
Likewise, If somebody sincerely believes that abortion kills a living human being - and science is actually on their side in this, particularly in later term - how does somebody compromise? Is there a maximum number of abortions that should be acceptable? Is there a magic time period in the development of the baby there it's OK at that point to kill the baby, but 10 seconds later it's not acceptable?
You're about as likely to "end this war" as you are the war in the middle east.
So too with abortion. The "it's not a human" versus "it is a human" will never ever be settled. You don't measure it the same way. You don't even begin to agree on the terms. And abortion will never ever end. It never has. It never will. The best we can do is to make it as rare as possible. To get to that, we also have to examine the underlying causes and address them. THERE is the room for compromise. Until people are willing to do that - there will be no progress. ANd so long as they are tossing out "blob of tissue" and you are hyper-sensitive to it, and you are tossing out "abortion mill" and they are hyper-sensitive to it - you aren't even beginning to look at the underlying problems.
And I suspect - given the fact that you are an intelligent and often thoughtful man - some part of this as actually ringing a bell for you. If I'm right about that - then THAT is the progress you were asking about earlier.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd, bless your heart, I really have a hard time believing you're winning people over on this topic with your style of 'convincing'.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostDo I not want to know? Because I don't like inappropriate humor!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostI'm not a Disney character!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat's a bummer. They seem to have a LOT of fun!If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThey are going to die if I do nothing. They are going to die if I spend time trying to awaken people to the futility of the war. I wish I could snap my fingers and make it not so. My hope is that the tide of ending the war will swing...and progress will be made towards solutions. I am convinced that if everyone stays devoted to the current war - the killing will never end.
So I cannot save more than the handful on a day-to-day basis - doing the same kinds of things you are doing. My hope is I can be part of stemming the tide somewhere down the line, if enough people take up the "end the war" cause.Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostDonald duck has three nephews, and I thought you might be making a reference to that. Technically, there may be more, but if I counted those, I'd have to count my dad's sisters who died in infancy/early childhood as aunts. And my maternal grandmother also lost a few babies in utero. Yes, my parents are Baby Boomers which explains the higher death rate. Maybe? I don't know if they'll grow up instantly or over time, but I will see them someday in my worldview.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostFor your sake, I hope your worldview is the correct one.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostAll this talk about finding compromise and solutions... and I haven't heard you explain what exactly you mean by that. If the pro life crowd are supposed to acknowledge a woman's "right" to have an abortion, and yet retain the belief that it is also immoral to do so, where does that leave us?
Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostOur only recourse is to show them that an embryo is in fact a individual human life with rights as sacred as the mother's.
Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostHence our objection to the intentionally dehumanising term "blob of cells". Only when they see that you can simultaneously respect the mother's right to not have a child AND respect the child's right to live by placing the child for adoption, will we see progress.
Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostI've said this before, and I'll say it again: those on the pro life side absolutely respect the mother's right to not keep her child. If she wants to keep the child but can't afford to, she is to be given assistance to make it happen. How do you not see that we're respecting the rights of the mother AND the child? You keep calling us out for only respecting the child's rights but that is not what we're doing.
1) The right you believe needs to be respected is: all human persons have the right to live. Framed that way, both sides can agree.
2) The right they believe needs to be respected is: an adult person has the right to make independent medical decisions about their own body/person.
I suspect neither side would argue with those general statements. The question is, how do we then approach solutions that respect BOTH of those rights as framed. It doesn't mater if they agree it's a human life or not. What I think matters is to tilt the conversation to (from the pro-lifer side, "I think this is a human life. As such, the whole idea of ending it is abhorrent to me. Is there any way we can find a solution that will preserve that life AND preserve your autonomy?"
The start to compromise and solution is acknowledging that the opposite side has valid concerns and valid fears. Right now - most of what I hear from each side is rampant disrespect for anyone with an opposing point of view.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-09-2019, 04:16 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostIf yours is correct, nothing matters! The universe winds down and dies a slow heat death if no one winds it back up.
As for the universe, well, we don't really know much about what will happen or has happened beyond a few scientific hypotheses and some mathematical models. What will be will be. It's above my pay grade.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI did not say, "a woman's right to have an abortion." I said, "a woman's right to make medical decisions," specifically those that entail her own body....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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