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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It would appear that our friend has taken his argument to a much safer environment where he can better control the dialogue.
    Yes - I created a new thread which, hopefully, can be engaged in without the rancor. My other alternative was to simply disconnect from the discussion.

    I don't know if that one will be any more successful - but it was worth the shot.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Yes - that is what I said. It does not translate to "no common ground." It translates to neither side will convince the other about when life begins. So other common ground needs to be sought. Other common ground exists. For example (from the other thread):

      1) Adoptions need to be made easier and more affordable (perhaps subsidize the industry?)
      2) A campaign for parents talking to kids about sex is needed (studies show that unwanted pregnancies drop precipitously when this happens).

      Not sure if any others will be forthcoming, but generally I think both sides would agree that "unwanted pregnancies" are (by definition) not desirable. Tackle that - and you have common ground.

      I'm sure there are more examples if we think about what is possible, instead of perpetually focusing on what is not.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Yes - that is what I said. It does not translate to "no common ground." It translates to neither side will convince the other about when life begins. So other common ground needs to be sought. Other common ground exists. For example (from the other thread):

        1) Adoptions need to be made easier and more affordable (perhaps subsidize the industry?)
        2) A campaign for parents talking to kids about sex is needed (studies show that unwanted pregnancies drop precipitously when this happens).

        Not sure if any others will be forthcoming, but generally I think both sides would agree that "unwanted pregnancies" are (by definition) not desirable. Tackle that - and you have common ground.

        I'm sure there are more examples if we think about what is possible, instead of perpetually focusing on what is not.
        Way to selectively choose one word out of what I said and meant. I said that according to you there was not going to be any compromise because neither side will change their stance. That is what you said.

        1. Cheaper adoptions would not convince women to give their children up for adoption. They are not the ones paying for the adoption. It costs them nothing to put their child up for adoption. So how would that convince any woman not to abort? And there is already financial and social support for pregnant women to help them afford to either keep their baby or go through the pregnancy and then put it up for adoption. That is what crisis pregnancy centers do. It's like you don't even know what Christians and Prolife people are doing out there and just choosing to pretend they are only "being mean" to pregnant women so you can burn your little straw man and act all sanctimonious.


        2. So you think parents should teach children that sex has risks and consequences? What do you suppose families do now? Especially traditional families.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Way to selectively choose one word out of what I said and meant.
          What word do you think I singled out?

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I said that according to you there was not going to be any compromise because neither side will change their stance. That is what you said.
          To complete what I said, you need to add "about when a human person begins."

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          1. Cheaper adoptions would not convince women to give their children up for adoption. They are not the ones paying for the adoption. It costs them nothing to put their child up for adoption. So how would that convince any woman not to abort? And there is already financial and social support for pregnant women to help them afford to either keep their baby or go through the pregnancy and then put it up for adoption. That is what crisis pregnancy centers do. It's like you don't even know what Christians and Prolife people are doing out there and just choosing to pretend they are only "being mean" to pregnant women so you can burn your little straw man and act all sanctimonious.

          2. So you think parents should teach children that sex has risks and consequences? What do you suppose families do now? Especially traditional families.
          No claim was made that this would solve the abortion issue completely, Sparko. What it does is change the discussion to "what CAN we do that has a chance of impacting abortions significantly?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Yes - I created a new thread which, hopefully, can be engaged in without the rancor. My other alternative was to simply disconnect from the discussion.

            I don't know if that one will be any more successful - but it was worth the shot.
            Believe me, I'm walking on egg shells in that thread so as to attempt not to upset anybody's sensibilities.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              2. So you think parents should teach children that sex has risks and consequences? What do you suppose families do now? Especially traditional families.
              More importantly, because the schools have our kids for such a large portion of the week, should the "sex education" stress more of the personal responsibility, and include a preference for adoption over abortion? Of course, this would have go back to the long abandoned proclamation that abortions should be "safe, legal and rare".
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                What word do you think I singled out?



                To complete what I said, you need to add "about when a human person begins."



                No claim was made that this would solve the abortion issue completely, Sparko. What it does is change the discussion to "what CAN we do that has a chance of impacting abortions significantly?
                You are the one whining about how what we are doing is not working, so YOU answer the question. What is your solution? So far it is "nothing" - you just want to pontificate on the topic, condemn our effort while not actually proposing anything new. So far most of what you have suggested, we are already doing and you seem blissfully unaware of it. That shows us how much you actually know about the topic or our side's efforts.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  More importantly, because the schools have our kids for such a large portion of the week, should the "sex education" stress more of the personal responsibility, and include a preference for adoption over abortion? Of course, this would have go back to the long abandoned proclamation that abortions should be "safe, legal and rare".
                  And whenever we try to get such education in the schools, the left claims we are trying to sneak religion into the school and/or mock the idea of abstinence or personal responsibility when it comes to sex.

                  Carp keeps claiming all we do is condemn women who want abortions and do nothing else, yet that is not true. We condemn the institutions that promote abortion, and the political advocates, but not the women who are pregnant and trying to decide. We are there to help them. The prochoice crowd does everything in the world to try to stop us. We also try to educate about sex and consequences. again the left tries to stop us. We are doing everything carp claims we should be doing but doesn't seem to realize that we are doing it. He is burning a straw man.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Connected to.... agreed
                    Dependent on....agreed

                    Part of?

                    I don't see how you make that particular case.
                    IIRC they have distinct DNAs which would make them separate individuals.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      IIRC they have distinct DNAs which would make them separate individuals.


                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      When fertilization occurs, a brand new being with its own unique HUMAN DNA - the map for EVERYTHING that person will become - exists. That's science.
                      National Geographic put together a television program (“In the Womb,” 2005) documenting the development of the baby throughout pregnancy. In the introduction of their program, they sum up the scientific knowledge of the beginning of life in the following way:

                      The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception [fertilization], when an individual’s unique set of DNA is created, a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated.


                      I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I was even incorrect when I used to say "Except twins" --

                      It is a basic tenet of human biology, taught in grade schools everywhere: Identical twins come from the same fertilized egg and, thus, share identical genetic profiles.

                      But according to new research, though identical twins share very similar genes, identical they are not. The discovery opens a new understanding of why two people who hail from the same embryo can differ in phenotype, as biologists refer to a person’s physical manifestation.

                      The new findings appear in the March issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, in a study conducted by scientists at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and universities in Sweden and the Netherlands. The scientists examined the genes of 10 pairs of monozygotic, or identical, twins, including 9 pairs in which one twin showed signs of dementia or Parkinson’s disease and the other did not.

                      ....

                      “When we started this study, people were expecting that only epigenetics would differ greatly between twins,” said Jan Dumanski, a professor of genetics at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and an author of the study. “But what we found are changes on the genetic level, the DNA sequence itself.”
                      Last edited by Cow Poke; 05-16-2019, 02:56 PM.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        You are the one whining about how what we are doing is not working, so YOU answer the question. What is your solution? So far it is "nothing" - you just want to pontificate on the topic, condemn our effort while not actually proposing anything new. So far most of what you have suggested, we are already doing and you seem blissfully unaware of it. That shows us how much you actually know about the topic or our side's efforts.
                        Sparko - this conversation is showing every sign of going down the usual rathole. I'm going to bow out and concentrate my attention in the other thread. You are welcome to join us if you wish. It is, after all, your site!
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          And whenever we try to get such education in the schools, the left claims we are trying to sneak religion into the school and/or mock the idea of abstinence or personal responsibility when it comes to sex.

                          Carp keeps claiming all we do is condemn women who want abortions and do nothing else, yet that is not true. We condemn the institutions that promote abortion, and the political advocates, but not the women who are pregnant and trying to decide. We are there to help them. The prochoice crowd does everything in the world to try to stop us. We also try to educate about sex and consequences. again the left tries to stop us. We are doing everything carp claims we should be doing but doesn't seem to realize that we are doing it. He is burning a straw man.
                          I posted this in carpe's parallel thread:

                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Pro-abortionists want abortions to be freely available without restriction. Pro-lifers want abortion outlawed. That is the ultimate goal of each side. You might be able to find temporary middle ground, but as soon as either side sees the needle start to shift one way or the other, that "middle ground" will vanish, and you're right back to where you started.

                          For example, new laws are enacted that make adoption faster and easier. Great! Everybody's happy! Next, some legislatures draft a law suggesting that abortion should only be allowed in cases where adoptive parents can not be found after a good-faith search. Oops! No more middle ground -- and you would probably even see some on the pro-abortion side start to condemn adoption services and decry them as a "backdoor ban" on abortion. Oh well, so much for that solution. What's next? Better sex education? Just as long as it doesn't include a frank and medically accurate description of the abortion process because that might discourage kids from embracing pro-abortion ideology.

                          The point is that the pro-abortion side will happily accept any compromise that doesn't actually prevent or restrict abortion, meaning that all you're offering here is a false sense of victory for the pro-life side.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimLamebrain
                            carpe asked for civility in this thread, CP, you might try honoring his request.
                            Wrong thread, Jimmy.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimLamebrain
                              carpe asked for civility in this thread, CP, you might try honoring his request.
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Wrong thread, Jimmy.
                              He tries SO very very hard!
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Connected to.... agreed
                                Dependent on....agreed

                                Part of?

                                I don't see how you make that particular case.
                                Given that before viability the fetus is “Connected to” and “Dependent on” the mother’s body, how is it not then “Part of” the mother’s body.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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