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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I believe the growing fetus is a human being. Ergo, I believe they are killing children and are not "innocent." But I do also know that people can sometimes do bad things without malice or intent to do harm. So I set aside what I think in order to try and see the position from their side. That looks like this:

    If I do not believe the fetus is a living human being, then there is no killing involved. What remains is a large group of people trying to impose their medical/religious beliefs on adult women who are not criminals using the government as their agency for doing so. Since I honestly believe there is no life involved, the medical rights of the woman are inviolate, and I end up being "pro-choice."


    I don't agree with them. I don't want abortion to continue. But I make an effort to understand them. Once I understand them, I ask myself, "what is the likelihood that I am going to convince them it is actually a life?" History tells me that there are 50 years of that war behind us with NO advancement on that front, so the most likely thing is that continuing that war will produce exactly the same result for the next 50 years - with millions more deaths.
    I wonder how many other evils in the world you can justify with that kind of thinking?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      They are “human” certainly.
      Wow, what an admission!
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
        They are “human” certainly. But they are not viable beings until 20+ weeks.
        So what you're saying is that the best place for a developing human life is in its mother's uterus. So let's fight to keep them there until they are viable.

        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          And, once again, you're doing that mind reader thing you pretend to hate - AND - make a goofy statement in the process. How does "fighting for the ones who can not defend themselves" condemn millions to death over the next 50 years, Mr. Chamberlain? AND, you're building a false dichotomy.
          Not mind reading - and not a false dichotomy. I point to history to suggest the most likely outcome. Compare the arguments from 50 years ago with the arguments from today. There is almost no difference. Same claims - same posters - same speeches. About the only change is nuances of science that have emerged since then - none of which has altered the arguments because the pro-choice people don't depend 100% on science for their definition - they also dip into philosophy.

          And while there has been some reduction in abortions, little of it can be attributed to any significant change in laws, because the anti-abortion laws continually get struck down. Even if the right succeeds and getting Roe vs. Wade struck down, it will not end the battle. The left will rally, women and men alike across the country will be outraged at "government intrusion into medical-decision making" and they will work until it overturns again. The women can stand and do battle and be seen and vote - the fetus cannot.

          The Republican party is graying at a significantly faster rate than democrats:

          In 2017, 57 percent of Republicans were age 50 or older, that age group made up only 39 percent of the party in 1997, an increase of 16 points. Democrats have gotten grayer as well, but only by 5 percentage points — 47 percent now, versus 42 percent 20 years ago.
          source

          Republicans (and independents that lean Republican) that are behind in almost all demographics (except white and/or non-college educated men), but most notably in by age. Millennial and Gen-X and significantly more liberal-leaning, Boomers are at a dead heat, and the elderly lean Republican. And women lean strongly towards the liberal/democrat view and currently outnumber men in the U.S. Those numbers should give any party pause.

          The simple reality is, even if you win a few skirmishes here and there, the odds are significant that you're going to predominately be on the losing side of the war, and kids will continue to die.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Three strikes - you're OUTTA HERE!
          Hardly...

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Carpe, you rag on me for my "bad analogies", yet you come up with this horrible analogy to "the Troubles" of Northern Ireland.
          The analogy is actually sound - both conflicts involved intransigent people on both sides continually blaming the other side for the conflict. Both conflicts involve people on both sides painting those on the other side as "the bad ones doing bad things." Both conflicts involve people on both sides adamantly unwilling to take a moment to examine the issue from the other perspective.

          There are also differences. That's why we call it an "analogy" rather than a "simulation" or "copy." Of course they are not "the same." If they were - it wouldn't be an analogy. You apparently want to focus on the differences to say "not the same" instead of focusing on the points of commonality that are the basis for the analogy. That comes as no surprise. So far, you have shown no willingness to even consider the opposing viewpoint - so why would you consider this?

          I continue to hold out hope for you, CP. But I may well be wrong. Your deeply rooted conservative convictions, which you regularly express and regular mock those who do not share them (here, anyway) may well prevent you from seeing anything I have to say as valid. I guess time will tell.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            And the other side gets a pass cause they don't believe the babies they are killing are human beings.
            You are putting words in my mouth, CP. I thought you were better than that. I expect it from Sparko, Rogue, and MM - it is their signature move. It's so much their signature move that I largely don't even bother responding to them anymore when they use it. It's a waste of time. But I don't expect this from you.

            At no point did I say "the other side gets a pass." Understanding the other side is not the same as excusing them. Understanding the reality of a situation is not a claim that the situation is just. In a just world, IMO, there would be no abortion.

            Nor did I say "you are bad." What I said was, those who seek to perpetuate the war are not seeking systemic solutions, so they are part of the problem. That is true for both sides.

            You see me posing this argument here...and do not see the arguments made to the pro-choicers, so you apparently see me as "defending them" and "repudiating you." That view is false and skewed. I defend no one in this battle. BOTH sides bear responsibility for its continuation.

            Ironically, I get pretty much the same reaction from the pro-choicers, only they see me as defending and excusing you.
            Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-15-2019, 08:05 AM.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              You are putting words in my mouth, CP.
              Nope.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Ironically, I get pretty much the same reaction from the pro-choicers, only they see me as defending and excusing you.
                So, maybe you're the guy standing in the middle fanning the flames.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Well, acknowledging there is debate over when this occurs, once you are dealing with two people, they each have equal rights, and neither of them has the right to kill the other. So If at any point we concede the fetus is a human person, then after that point, the mother's desires to live free of obligation to the child do not supersede the child's right to life. So she may chose to adopt, but she legally couldn't chose to kill once the fetus is recognized as a human person. That is, in fact, the crux of the impasse. Pro-life typically deems the fetus a human person from conception. Pro-choice avoids classifying the fetus as a person for the entire term of the pregnancy, up to and including actual birth (there are stories of post birth abortion, but that is illegal even if it occurs).
                  Correct - they do not see it as a life - so there is no question (to them) about which right takes precedence: the rights of a person take priority over the rights of a "blob of tissue." As I have said before - begin with THEIR assumptions and you end with their conclusions with no contradiction. Begin with YOUR assumptions and you end with your conclusions with no contradiction. Each side is perfectly rational/reasonable, given their starting place.

                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Changing the attitude toward abortion to favor adoption, coupled with attitudes/practices that are effective at reducing unwanted pregnancy would be a big help in terms of reducing the number of abortions. But we have too many conflicting messages. It's like #metoo, which crucifies men that might have accidentally (or on purpose) in a weak moment touched a women when she didn't want him too, OTOH the net crawls with porn that encourages and glorifies the opposite. A good bit of our music and entertainment encourages behavior that produces babies before one is ready. But we tell kids not to have babies before they are ready. It's pretty messed up.

                  Jim
                  There is no question that there are social norms that contribute to the problem. That, to me, has to be the starting point. What kind of "movement" could be started that would make "unwanted pregnancy" more undesirable than "unprotected sex?" We have seen social movements before - concepts sweeping the country and catching most people in the wake. One day its "cool" to wear polyester bell bottoms and the next it is repugnant. One day its cool to smoke, the next day its repugnant. One day no one vapes, the next day it sweeps the country.

                  We need to ask ourselves how to create such a movement concerning unwanted pregnancies. The message "you're uncool if you are pregnant without a plan/desire to be so" needs to somehow become "the default." The question is - how do we get there. And what tools do we provide to enable that?

                  That is looking for a way to AVOID the "rights" conundrum - which is intrinsically unsolvable.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Worth mentioning again, cause it gets lost in the fog of war.....

                    World's biggest abortion provider admits it exists for abortion

                    Pro-life organizations are "thanking" Planned Parenthood's newest leader for confirming what really isn't secret to anyone paying attention.

                    Planned Parenthood's new president is Dr. Leana Wen, who has enjoyed weeks of fawning media interviews since taking the helm in November.

                    She was apparently unhappy, however, with a Buzzfeed headline that read, "Planned Parenthood's new president wants to focus on non-abortion health care."


                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]37058[/ATTACH]
                    Cherry picking, CP. The statement is "protecting and broadening access to abortion and reproductive healthcare." It is not "we live for abortion." That is a gross distortion, and part of the inflammatory language that just perpetuates the war.

                    This kind of distortion and cherry picking, IMO, is indeed "bad." It is intellectually dishonest - regardless of which side is doing it.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I wonder how many other evils in the world you can justify with that kind of thinking?
                      There is a distinction between "seeking to understand" and "seeking to justify."

                      Since I have not "justified" anyone or anything - I have no further response.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Nope.
                        Yes - you are. You are claiming I said things I have not said - and attributed meanings to my words that are not my meanings. That is "putting words in my mouth."
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          So, maybe you're the guy standing in the middle fanning the flames.
                          carpe is very careful to never take a firm stand on anything, presumably out of a desire to never be wrong.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            There is a distinction between "seeking to understand" and "seeking to justify."

                            Since I have not "justified" anyone or anything - I have no further response.
                            (Paraphrasing) "They're only doing what they are convinced is right" is a pretty strong justification.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              So, maybe you're the guy standing in the middle fanning the flames.
                              No. You folks are doing that all by yourselves with "abortion mill" and "baby killer" and "misogynist" and "hypocritical right-wing nuts" and all the rest.

                              Pointing out what you are doing and its futility is not "fanning the flames." Indeed, the flames are burning just fine without me. That I can occasionally convince a person here or there to abandon the war and look for other solutions is a testament to the fact that I am working to reduce the flames.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                (Paraphrasing) "They're only doing what they are convinced is right" is a pretty strong justification.
                                No - it is an explanation. They are doing what they think is right. You are doing what you think is right. At no point have I said "they are doing right." Nor have I suggested they should continue what they are doing. I have been clear: abortion is a travesty and should end. Life begins at conception/implantation. I don't know how much more clear I can be, despite your assertion that I never "take a stand."

                                The ability to see the argument from both sides is the first step to trying to find solutions. The ability to see that two sides could each be composed of good people trying to do what they think is right is another step. These are steps I have taken. I am inviting others - from both sides - to take the same steps. Then, maybe, the efforts can be shifted from "war" to "solutions."

                                Unfortunately, too many people seem to enjoy the "war" too much to see it end. So my success rate is low. I don't expect that to change here.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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