Pro-choice distortion

[seer]

We disagree on the status of the fetus as "a human life." That is not a moral issue - it is a scientific/philosophical issue and it is intransigent: there is no mechanism for resolving it.

What am I missing? Of course a human fetus is a human life. What else would it be?

[Cow Poke]

We disagree on the status of the fetus as "a human life." That is not a moral issue - it is a scientific/philosophical issue and it is intransigent: there is no mechanism for resolving it.

And there you have it! One side believes that it's a human life based on logic, biology, science, with proof from technology, DNA, etc...
The other side believes it's not based on their own agenda.

[carpedm9587]

And you keep fighting back --- you're pretty much keeping this war, particularly in this thread, alive.

How interesting that you didn't seem to notice that two of those things in that post were things the OTHER side does.

What I am doing, CP, is pointing out the futility of the war - and the specific things that constitute "engaging in the war." So I guess I can ask you, how would you like the message delivered? How do I convey "this war is pointless" without pointing out what constitutes "this war?"

Yet, here you are, blogging on and on and on with vigor and verbosity.

Of course I am. What else do you think I would be doing?

[guacamole]

I don't. That's pretty much the point. Your philosophy is not going to shift to theirs. Theirs is not going to shift to yours. It hasn't for 50 years. There is no reason to think it is going to for the next 50 years. This is what you folks are not hearing, as best I can tell. Any attempt to shift the philosophy of the other side is most likely doomed to failure and will only result in prolonging the conflict and more deaths.

That is why solutions must engage BEFORE the conflict arises. Once there is a pregnancy - the conflict is inevitable. The only option I can think of is to make carry/adopt more attractive than abort.

You've described the problem on a whole host of political issues. People refuse to compromise to lessen damage and have an all-or-nothing mentality that prevents any kind of progress. Abortion. Healthcare. Gun Control. The Safety Net. Anyone capable and wise enough to compromise gets punished by the primary system.

[carpedm9587]

I think he honestly believes he's "neutral" on this, but he has clearly chosen to stay in the fight.

I am pro-life - and I am pro-choice. As a result - I am "against the confict." I am definitely not neutral.

Perhaps, instead of doing that "mind reading" thing that you are doing, you might try reading and attempting to understand what I am actually saying. So far, little or nothing of what you have reflected back is accurate. You have imposed you own meaning on my words, and then objected to them.

Not exactly effective communication - and not something I can do much about so long as you insist on misrepresenting what I am actually saying.

[Cow Poke]

How interesting that you didn't seem to notice that two of those things in that post were things the OTHER side does.

I'm not dishonestly claiming to be neutral.

What I am doing, CP, is pointing out the futility of the war - and the specific things that constitute "engaging in the war." So I guess I can ask you, how would you like the message delivered? How do I convey "this war is pointless" without pointing out what constitutes "this war?"

What you are doing, Carpe, is endlessly bloviating about a conflict that is about as easy to resolve as "peace in the Middle East".

Of course I am. What else do you think I would be doing?

It's almost amusing. You want "the war" to stop, so you run out between both sides, pretending to be neutral, while pretty much presenting the she abortionist's side, while claiming you're pro-life, and.... do you realize that if you simply stopped posting, this thread would die a natural death?

[carpedm9587]

What am I missing? Of course a human fetus is a human life. What else would it be?

You believe it is an individuated human life. They do not. You (apparently) make that assessment scientifically. They use science AND philosophy. For many, when an individuated person exists happens somewhere between conception and birth.

As I noted many times, this is not a new concept. For much of human history, a fetus was considered a person when it had quickened (i.e., movement was first detected). This was true within many religions. Science has given us a new ability to look into the womb - and changed the discussion.

The core of the abortion issue is, "when is it an individuated human person?" That has not been agreed to for 50+ years now, and is not going to be agreed to in the foreseeable future. It is an irreconcilable difference. Ergo, if you are going to significantly reduce abortions, you are not going to do it by convincing them to your view any more than they will convince you to theirs.

So a different approach is needed...

[carpedm9587]

And there you have it! One side believes that it's a human life based on logic, biology, science, with proof from technology, DNA, etc...
The other side believes it's not based on their own agenda.

And they say, "one side believes it is a human life at time X for the following scientific and philosophical reasons, and the other side believes it is life for the entire time based on their own (usually religious) agenda.

Congrats - you've just demonstrated that you are as stubborn as they, and more interested in the war than systemic solutions.

[Cow Poke]

I am pro-life - and I am pro-choice.

ME TOO!!!! I believe every human being ought to be able to grow up to make their own choices, instead of outsiders literally killing their choices before they even make it out of the womb.

As a result - I am "against the confict." I am definitely not neutral.

So, you're pretty much like the guy in the bar who keeps it going by insulting both sides? Only one side more than the other?

Perhaps, instead of doing that "mind reading" thing that you are doing,

You're reading my mind?

you might try reading and attempting to understand what I am actually saying. So far, little or nothing of what you have reflected back is accurate. You have imposed you own meaning on my words, and then objected to them.

Not exactly effective communication - and not something I can do much about so long as you insist on misrepresenting what I am actually saying.

Carpe, honey, I know you think you're a professional communicator, but you really.... I think a lot of what you INTEND to say gets lost in your bloviation.

[carpedm9587]

You've described the problem on a whole host of political issues. People refuse to compromise to lessen damage and have an all-or-nothing mentality that prevents any kind of progress. Abortion. Healthcare. Gun Control. The Safety Net. Anyone capable and wise enough to compromise gets punished by the primary system.

Yeah... sadly enough... that is our current state of affairs.

I do realize that I am somewhat whistling against the wind. But every once in a while....someone picks up the tune...

Like I said - this guy...

[seer]

You believe it is an individuated human life. They do not. You (apparently) make that assessment scientifically. They use science AND philosophy. For many, when an individuated person exists happens somewhere between conception and birth.

Philosophy does not change the fact that it is a unique human life at conception, and as such is deserving of human rights.

[carpedm9587]

I'm not dishonestly claiming to be neutral.

Nor am I! Now would you kindly stop repeating this lie?

What you are doing, Carpe, is endlessly bloviating about a conflict that is about as easy to resolve as "peace in the Middle East".

I actually didn't say it was easy - at any point.

It's almost amusing. You want "the war" to stop, so you run out between both sides, pretending to be neutral, while pretty much presenting the she abortionist's side, while claiming you're pro-life, and.... do you realize that if you simply stopped posting, this thread would die a natural death?

If I stop - then there is no one here to call this out. No one is forcing you to post, CP. Take your hands away from the keyboard - visit another thread - and I won't be responding to you.

[Cow Poke]

And they say, "one side believes it is a human life at time X for the following scientific and philosophical reasons, and the other side believes it is life for the entire time based on their own (usually religious) agenda.

"They" need to get their facts straight. It doesn't suddenly become a human being at point X, and they won't ever be willing to agree on a specific point in the 9 months (or more).

Congrats - you've just demonstrated that you are as stubborn as they, and more interested in the war than systemic solutions.

Almost stubborn as I would be if you wanted to kill both of my daughters, and wanted me to compromise by letting you kill only one. I think you enjoy arguing, and this particular argument allows you to blog on and on and on, because there IS NO COMPROMISE.

Prove me wrong. What's the compromise?

[carpedm9587]

ME TOO!!!! I believe every human being ought to be able to grow up to make their own choices, instead of outsiders literally killing their choices before they even make it out of the womb.

I believe that. AND I believe every woman should be free to make her own medical decisions without government intervention.

So, you're pretty much like the guy in the bar who keeps it going by insulting both sides? Only one side more than the other?

At this point, further responses to this continually repeated lie are not warranted. I'll leave you to it.

You're reading my mind?

No - but I will admit this game (on your part) is getting tedious.

Carpe, honey, I know you think you're a professional communicator, but you really.... I think a lot of what you INTEND to say gets lost in your bloviation.

CP, honey, I know you think your funny - and sometimes you are - but you also truly can be an ass.

[carpedm9587]

Philosophy does not change the fact that it is a unique human life at conception, and as such is deserving of human rights.

OK - so now I know "winning" and "being right" and "engaging in the war" are more important to you that finding solutions.

And while you are pounding your head against that wall, Seer, kids will be dying.