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Pro-choice distortion

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Even the name "planned parenthood" is a lie.
    I always found that name to be an oxymoron. How they planning for people to be parents when there will not be a child? Makes no sense at all.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      You raise an interesting point. If "informed consent" is required and groups like planned parenthood are required to review all of the options (which I think they should), it stands to reason that ALL woman's care facilities should be required to outline ALL of the options, right?
      I don't see how it could be any other way legally. What would happen though is that women's care facilities with a religious basis would seek an exemption from the law. Not sure if it would be granted as they are counselling on what is seen to be a medical issue.

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        My understanding of the pro-choice position is a little more nuanced than this. Adoption would just as easily avoid the ruining of a young woman's life. The issue is more about whether or not is it the place of government to make medical decisions for a woman who has not committed any crime and is perfectly capable of making her own medical decisions. The question of "when a new human person begins" obviously impacts the position. "When a new human person begins" is a partly scientific question and partly a philosophical one. I doubt it will ever be settled to everyone's satisfaction.
        I think you are right. I am against abortion in general, so I don't keep fresh in my mind all the arguments for it. But I am quite aware of the fact people that advocate for abortion are not seething demons with a blood lust for babies - which is how they are often portrayed by the pro-life side of the debate. I agree the question of when a human person begins also weighs into the pro-choice side. Generally there is only one acceptable answer on the pro-life side, and anyone discussing anything other than that precise position on that specific issue is generally automatically branded an abortionist, or nearly so as we saw in the thread where I raised the issue of the OT law's distinction between a blow that results in an abortion of a imperfectly formed fetus and one that results in the abortion of a fully formed baby.

        I may be wrong but I think a similar irrationality exists on the pro-choice side when one tries to recognize that a third trimester fetus is a baby and for the most part viable outside the womb and therefore abortion should not be allowed at that point outside of clear mortal danger to the mother.

        Its a very emotional debate, and few can discuss it rationally.

        Jim
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          They REWARD their clinics for doing MORE abortions, Jim. "For exceeding ABORTION visits" - not for "providing more services to women".
          How about the rest of my post CP? Are you afraid of being honest about what I said? People that don't have viable arguments remove the parts that are too challenging for comfort.

          The rest of what I said:

          Originally posted by oxmixmudd
          Though I agree with you that is a horrible way to approach the issue.

          But not as horrible as bombing abortion clinics, or having large groups of people verbally assaulting the individual young ladies entering the clinics
          So what does the rest of my post do. First, I am agreeing with you that the example is bad. That there should not be rewards for more abortions. But second I'm pointing out you are cherry picking a single instance of bad behavior and characterizing all abortionists as belonging to their ilk. So I point out that pro-lifers have been known to bomb, or burn down, abortion clinics. And they have also far more frequently been known to seriously abuse these young girls at a horrible personal crossroads in a massively public way. And that is WORSE. And the pro-lifers could, just as you are doing, characterize ALL pro-lifers as being abortion clinic bombers or the sorts of people that curse at young ladies going into abortion clinics.

          So you tear all that out, and just post the part that allows you to ignore your own lack of capacity to consider the entire problem, and to recognize that the same excesses exist on our side of the fence.

          But I'm not going to let you do that. You have mischaracterized their position by painting pro-choice people as effectively being demons. And as a whole they just aren't. But they are misguided as to what constitutes human life, and what the priorities are regarding the rights of the mother and the rights of the unborn child.

          Jim
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-29-2019, 09:35 PM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            And Hitler thought he was doing the human race a favor by purging Jews from the gene pool. So what? Does it really matter when what they believe is so egregiously evil?

            And you wonder why we question your stance on abortion when you post nonsense like this that implies that the opposing sides are on equal moral footing.
            There is no reasonable comparison here. The issue of abortion when it involves the very early stages of gestation is not the same as hauling men women and children to concentration camps and abusing them and then gassing them.

            That is not to say that the millions of children that have been aborted is not a tragedy. But it is not in the same class or category as the holocaust - not in the general case.

            It is not hard, apart from a very strong religiously based conviction that the human person begins at conception, to believe that stopping the early stages of gestation is just another form of birth control. It is another thing altogether to talk about doing to men women and children what Hitler did.

            As I've said before, the debate and the real tragedy, the real evil, is in the callous hardness of heart that would abort a viable fetus, a third or even second trimester baby, for convenience. And I think that is where the debate should be had, and where we can make a powerful statement that few can actually find a moral reason to reject.

            What we need is a clear definition of when the human person begins, and then we can work around that in a civil way. Anything else is a dead debate that can never be resolved in a pluralistic society of the religious and the non-religious.

            I will say this. It is incredibly hypocritical to in one thread support language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville - who support the underlying hatred of the Jews that resulted in what Hitler did - and then turn around and take the extreme opposite position on Nazism and Hitler in a thread on abortion.


            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-29-2019, 09:54 PM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              I think you are right. I am against abortion in general, so I don't keep fresh in my mind all the arguments for it. But I am quite aware of the fact people that advocate for abortion are not seething demons with a blood lust for babies - which is how they are often portrayed by the pro-life side of the debate.
              Yeah, that was my argument exactly!

              Its a very emotional debate, and few can discuss it rationally.
              You, no doubt, are the obvious exception.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                There is no reasonable comparison here. The issue of abortion when it involves the very early stages of gestation is not the same as hauling men women and children to concentration camps and abusing them and then gassing them.
                Morally speaking there is zero difference.

                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                It is not hard, apart from a very strong religiously based conviction that the human person begins at conception, to believe that stopping the early stages of gestation is just another form of birth control.
                I'm familiar with these empty rationalizations just as I'm familiar with scripture where God says he knows the unborn child being knit together in the mother's womb. I do find it curious that someone who calls himself a Christian would be so cynical and dismissive of religious convictions, and that someone who claims to be opposed to abortion is always so quick to defend the arguments of pro-abortionists.

                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                I will say this. It is incredibly hypocritical to in one thread support language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville - who support the underlying hatred of the Jews that resulted in what Hitler did - and then turn around and take the extreme opposite position on Nazism and Hitler in a thread on abortion.
                Nowhere have I supported "language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville". What I did do was call you out for perpetuating the bald-faced lie that President Trump used such language, a lie that even CNN's own Jake Tapper recently debunked.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Yeah, that was my argument exactly!



                  You, no doubt, are the obvious exception.
                  Only compared to some

                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Morally speaking there is zero difference.


                    I'm familiar with these empty rationalizations just as I'm familiar with scripture where God says he knows the unborn child being knit together in the mother's womb. I do find it curious that someone who calls himself a Christian would be so cynical and dismissive of religious convictions, and that someone who claims to be opposed to abortion is always so quick to defend the arguments of pro-abortionists.


                    Nowhere have I supported "language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville". What I did do was call you out for perpetuating the bald-faced lie that President Trump used such language, a lie that even CNN's own Jake Tapper recently debunked.
                    Your ramblings above make clear you are incapable of comprehending the difference between a statement that explicitly supports neo-Nazis and one that implicitly supports them.

                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-30-2019, 06:07 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by oxmixmuddle View Post
                      Your ramblings above make clear you are incapable of comprehending the difference between a statement that explicitly supports neo-Nazis and one that implicitly supports them.
                      Right.

                      Tell us again how you oppose abortion in the very same breath that you defend it.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Right.

                        Tell us again how you oppose abortion in the very same breath that you defend it.
                        Again the willful distortion or the nearly braindead lack of comprehension.

                        I have only spoken out against unnecessary and fundamentally immoral lies and distortions. Lies that you apparently would rather go unchallenged.

                        You can't be a beacon of light if you use the tactics of darkness to make your case. You would do well to stop distorting my words and to stop standing behind those that build their positions on lies and deception.

                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Because the law was structured in such a way that the woman had no choice about what information she wanted to see or the procedures required to obtain it. She HAS to look at an ultrasound (which means she has to undergo an ultrasound) and HAS to review the information as outlined in the law before making a choice.

                          When I go to my doctor, I have no desire to have the government tell me what I must look at before I make a decision. That is between me an my doctor. If I want an ultrasound, I'll get one. If I want to look at my X-rays, I'll look at them. If I don't, I won't. No informed consent form I have ever signed has required me to do anything other than talk to my doctor, and hear about the options. I have no problem with an informed consent law that requires a doctor to outline all of the options available to a woman at that point. I have a problem with any law that mandates medical procedures and the format in which the information is presented.
                          What if you went to your doctor and he said you needed a heart transplant, and that he could have a new heart for you tomorrow? Would you say yes without asking questions? Let's say it was legal and common to go to the nearest prison and harvest organs from the prisoners, and most people didn't know that's where they came from. If the doctor was legally required to inform you of that fact, would you still go through with it after finding out? If he wasn't required to do so, would you be upset when you found out after the transplant, when it was too late to change your mind? Would you wish that he had told you? Do you think it's morally/ethically acceptable for doctors to perform procedures that result in a loss of human life without informing the patient of the details of what the procedure entailed? Do you think it is likewise acceptable for doctors to hide that fact from patients in order to make sure no one backs out of the procedure? After all, they are encouraged to maximize the number of people who go through with it in order to get their funding.

                          The ultrasound requirements are there to ensure that these girls understand that it is not just a formless mass of tissue that is being removed (which seems to be an all too common misconception) but is rather the stopping of a human heartbeat. Many of them find out later on exactly what they've done, and it is traumatizing.

                          For the record, I think that church-run crisis pregnancy centers should tell the mothers about abortions, but unlike what the abortion clinics are doing, they should tell them exactly what they are - the ending of a human life.
                          Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            "The baby is born, the mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully. And then the doctor and mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby.”

                            I really don't think this ever happens. I'd be surprised if anyone who considers the matter for more than a few seconds would think this ever happens.
                            I don't think this will change anyone's mind in either direction. It might, however, reduce pro-choice credibility.

                            So the question is: do such obvious falsehoods do more harm than good?
                            We need to remember that Trump’s not qualified to talk about anything. He is the hate monger in chief and all good and loyal citizens of the USA should ignore him. If he is ignored, I am confident that recovery will take no longer than about one generation.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by oxmixmuddle View Post
                              I have only spoken out against unnecessary and fundamentally immoral lies and distortions. Lies that you apparently would rather go unchallenged.
                              You mean "lies" like "human life begins at conception, and it is immoral to kill it"?

                              Originally posted by oxmixmuddle View Post
                              You can't be a beacon of light if you use the tactics of darkness to make your case. You would do well to stop distorting my words and to stop standing behind those that build their positions on lies and deception.
                              Your own words condemn you.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                You mean "lies" like "human life begins at conception, and it is immoral to kill it"?
                                And you continue with the willful distortion. You know (A) those are not lies (B) I am talking about other statements, statements that are lies.


                                Your own words condemn you.
                                Not in this case, as I am speaking of the lies that are used to push back against abortion in place of the truth. The truth is enough. When we lie to try to make our case stronger, we engage in the tactics of darkness and we thus make our case weaker. It is a lie to characterize all or most pro-abortionists as trying to make women kill their babies. And to say things like that undermines our ability to speak the truth - like the fact that a third trimester baby is viable and the shock and trauma of an abortion that late is hardly different than actually giving birth and so to opt for killing the baby over bearing it raising and/or adopting it is choosing death over life, is choosing murder.




                                Jim
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-30-2019, 08:47 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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