Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Pro-choice distortion
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou raise an interesting point. If "informed consent" is required and groups like planned parenthood are required to review all of the options (which I think they should), it stands to reason that ALL woman's care facilities should be required to outline ALL of the options, right?
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMy understanding of the pro-choice position is a little more nuanced than this. Adoption would just as easily avoid the ruining of a young woman's life. The issue is more about whether or not is it the place of government to make medical decisions for a woman who has not committed any crime and is perfectly capable of making her own medical decisions. The question of "when a new human person begins" obviously impacts the position. "When a new human person begins" is a partly scientific question and partly a philosophical one. I doubt it will ever be settled to everyone's satisfaction.
I may be wrong but I think a similar irrationality exists on the pro-choice side when one tries to recognize that a third trimester fetus is a baby and for the most part viable outside the womb and therefore abortion should not be allowed at that point outside of clear mortal danger to the mother.
Its a very emotional debate, and few can discuss it rationally.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThey REWARD their clinics for doing MORE abortions, Jim. "For exceeding ABORTION visits" - not for "providing more services to women".
The rest of what I said:
Originally posted by oxmixmuddThough I agree with you that is a horrible way to approach the issue.
But not as horrible as bombing abortion clinics, or having large groups of people verbally assaulting the individual young ladies entering the clinics
So you tear all that out, and just post the part that allows you to ignore your own lack of capacity to consider the entire problem, and to recognize that the same excesses exist on our side of the fence.
But I'm not going to let you do that. You have mischaracterized their position by painting pro-choice people as effectively being demons. And as a whole they just aren't. But they are misguided as to what constitutes human life, and what the priorities are regarding the rights of the mother and the rights of the unborn child.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 04-29-2019, 09:35 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAnd Hitler thought he was doing the human race a favor by purging Jews from the gene pool. So what? Does it really matter when what they believe is so egregiously evil?
And you wonder why we question your stance on abortion when you post nonsense like this that implies that the opposing sides are on equal moral footing.
That is not to say that the millions of children that have been aborted is not a tragedy. But it is not in the same class or category as the holocaust - not in the general case.
It is not hard, apart from a very strong religiously based conviction that the human person begins at conception, to believe that stopping the early stages of gestation is just another form of birth control. It is another thing altogether to talk about doing to men women and children what Hitler did.
As I've said before, the debate and the real tragedy, the real evil, is in the callous hardness of heart that would abort a viable fetus, a third or even second trimester baby, for convenience. And I think that is where the debate should be had, and where we can make a powerful statement that few can actually find a moral reason to reject.
What we need is a clear definition of when the human person begins, and then we can work around that in a civil way. Anything else is a dead debate that can never be resolved in a pluralistic society of the religious and the non-religious.
I will say this. It is incredibly hypocritical to in one thread support language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville - who support the underlying hatred of the Jews that resulted in what Hitler did - and then turn around and take the extreme opposite position on Nazism and Hitler in a thread on abortion.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 04-29-2019, 09:54 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI think you are right. I am against abortion in general, so I don't keep fresh in my mind all the arguments for it. But I am quite aware of the fact people that advocate for abortion are not seething demons with a blood lust for babies - which is how they are often portrayed by the pro-life side of the debate.
Its a very emotional debate, and few can discuss it rationally.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThere is no reasonable comparison here. The issue of abortion when it involves the very early stages of gestation is not the same as hauling men women and children to concentration camps and abusing them and then gassing them.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt is not hard, apart from a very strong religiously based conviction that the human person begins at conception, to believe that stopping the early stages of gestation is just another form of birth control.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI will say this. It is incredibly hypocritical to in one thread support language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville - who support the underlying hatred of the Jews that resulted in what Hitler did - and then turn around and take the extreme opposite position on Nazism and Hitler in a thread on abortion.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, that was my argument exactly!
You, no doubt, are the obvious exception.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostMorally speaking there is zero difference.
I'm familiar with these empty rationalizations just as I'm familiar with scripture where God says he knows the unborn child being knit together in the mother's womb. I do find it curious that someone who calls himself a Christian would be so cynical and dismissive of religious convictions, and that someone who claims to be opposed to abortion is always so quick to defend the arguments of pro-abortionists.
Nowhere have I supported "language that implicitly excuses the neo-Nazis in Charlottsville". What I did do was call you out for perpetuating the bald-faced lie that President Trump used such language, a lie that even CNN's own Jake Tapper recently debunked.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 04-30-2019, 06:07 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmuddle View PostYour ramblings above make clear you are incapable of comprehending the difference between a statement that explicitly supports neo-Nazis and one that implicitly supports them.
Tell us again how you oppose abortion in the very same breath that you defend it.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostRight.
Tell us again how you oppose abortion in the very same breath that you defend it.
I have only spoken out against unnecessary and fundamentally immoral lies and distortions. Lies that you apparently would rather go unchallenged.
You can't be a beacon of light if you use the tactics of darkness to make your case. You would do well to stop distorting my words and to stop standing behind those that build their positions on lies and deception.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBecause the law was structured in such a way that the woman had no choice about what information she wanted to see or the procedures required to obtain it. She HAS to look at an ultrasound (which means she has to undergo an ultrasound) and HAS to review the information as outlined in the law before making a choice.
When I go to my doctor, I have no desire to have the government tell me what I must look at before I make a decision. That is between me an my doctor. If I want an ultrasound, I'll get one. If I want to look at my X-rays, I'll look at them. If I don't, I won't. No informed consent form I have ever signed has required me to do anything other than talk to my doctor, and hear about the options. I have no problem with an informed consent law that requires a doctor to outline all of the options available to a woman at that point. I have a problem with any law that mandates medical procedures and the format in which the information is presented.
The ultrasound requirements are there to ensure that these girls understand that it is not just a formless mass of tissue that is being removed (which seems to be an all too common misconception) but is rather the stopping of a human heartbeat. Many of them find out later on exactly what they've done, and it is traumatizing.
For the record, I think that church-run crisis pregnancy centers should tell the mothers about abortions, but unlike what the abortion clinics are doing, they should tell them exactly what they are - the ending of a human life.Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.
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Originally posted by Roy View Post"The baby is born, the mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully. And then the doctor and mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby.”
I really don't think this ever happens. I'd be surprised if anyone who considers the matter for more than a few seconds would think this ever happens.
I don't think this will change anyone's mind in either direction. It might, however, reduce pro-choice credibility.
So the question is: do such obvious falsehoods do more harm than good?“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by oxmixmuddle View PostI have only spoken out against unnecessary and fundamentally immoral lies and distortions. Lies that you apparently would rather go unchallenged.
Originally posted by oxmixmuddle View PostYou can't be a beacon of light if you use the tactics of darkness to make your case. You would do well to stop distorting my words and to stop standing behind those that build their positions on lies and deception.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou mean "lies" like "human life begins at conception, and it is immoral to kill it"?
Your own words condemn you.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 04-30-2019, 08:47 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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