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Thread: Pro-choice distortion

  1. #381
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You are putting words in my mouth, CP.
    Nope.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. #382
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Ironically, I get pretty much the same reaction from the pro-choicers, only they see me as defending and excusing you.
    So, maybe you're the guy standing in the middle fanning the flames.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #383
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Well, acknowledging there is debate over when this occurs, once you are dealing with two people, they each have equal rights, and neither of them has the right to kill the other. So If at any point we concede the fetus is a human person, then after that point, the mother's desires to live free of obligation to the child do not supersede the child's right to life. So she may chose to adopt, but she legally couldn't chose to kill once the fetus is recognized as a human person. That is, in fact, the crux of the impasse. Pro-life typically deems the fetus a human person from conception. Pro-choice avoids classifying the fetus as a person for the entire term of the pregnancy, up to and including actual birth (there are stories of post birth abortion, but that is illegal even if it occurs).
    Correct - they do not see it as a life - so there is no question (to them) about which right takes precedence: the rights of a person take priority over the rights of a "blob of tissue." As I have said before - begin with THEIR assumptions and you end with their conclusions with no contradiction. Begin with YOUR assumptions and you end with your conclusions with no contradiction. Each side is perfectly rational/reasonable, given their starting place.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Changing the attitude toward abortion to favor adoption, coupled with attitudes/practices that are effective at reducing unwanted pregnancy would be a big help in terms of reducing the number of abortions. But we have too many conflicting messages. It's like #metoo, which crucifies men that might have accidentally (or on purpose) in a weak moment touched a women when she didn't want him too, OTOH the net crawls with porn that encourages and glorifies the opposite. A good bit of our music and entertainment encourages behavior that produces babies before one is ready. But we tell kids not to have babies before they are ready. It's pretty messed up.

    Jim
    There is no question that there are social norms that contribute to the problem. That, to me, has to be the starting point. What kind of "movement" could be started that would make "unwanted pregnancy" more undesirable than "unprotected sex?" We have seen social movements before - concepts sweeping the country and catching most people in the wake. One day its "cool" to wear polyester bell bottoms and the next it is repugnant. One day its cool to smoke, the next day its repugnant. One day no one vapes, the next day it sweeps the country.

    We need to ask ourselves how to create such a movement concerning unwanted pregnancies. The message "you're uncool if you are pregnant without a plan/desire to be so" needs to somehow become "the default." The question is - how do we get there. And what tools do we provide to enable that?

    That is looking for a way to AVOID the "rights" conundrum - which is intrinsically unsolvable.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #384
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Worth mentioning again, cause it gets lost in the fog of war.....

    World's biggest abortion provider admits it exists for abortion

    Pro-life organizations are "thanking" Planned Parenthood's newest leader for confirming what really isn't secret to anyone paying attention.

    Planned Parenthood's new president is Dr. Leana Wen, who has enjoyed weeks of fawning media interviews since taking the helm in November.

    She was apparently unhappy, however, with a Buzzfeed headline that read, "Planned Parenthood's new president wants to focus on non-abortion health care."


    Attachment 37058
    Cherry picking, CP. The statement is "protecting and broadening access to abortion and reproductive healthcare." It is not "we live for abortion." That is a gross distortion, and part of the inflammatory language that just perpetuates the war.

    This kind of distortion and cherry picking, IMO, is indeed "bad." It is intellectually dishonest - regardless of which side is doing it.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #385
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I wonder how many other evils in the world you can justify with that kind of thinking?
    There is a distinction between "seeking to understand" and "seeking to justify."

    Since I have not "justified" anyone or anything - I have no further response.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #386
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Nope.
    Yes - you are. You are claiming I said things I have not said - and attributed meanings to my words that are not my meanings. That is "putting words in my mouth."
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #387
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, maybe you're the guy standing in the middle fanning the flames.
    carpe is very careful to never take a firm stand on anything, presumably out of a desire to never be wrong.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  9. #388
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    There is a distinction between "seeking to understand" and "seeking to justify."

    Since I have not "justified" anyone or anything - I have no further response.
    (Paraphrasing) "They're only doing what they are convinced is right" is a pretty strong justification.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #389
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, maybe you're the guy standing in the middle fanning the flames.
    No. You folks are doing that all by yourselves with "abortion mill" and "baby killer" and "misogynist" and "hypocritical right-wing nuts" and all the rest.

    Pointing out what you are doing and its futility is not "fanning the flames." Indeed, the flames are burning just fine without me. That I can occasionally convince a person here or there to abandon the war and look for other solutions is a testament to the fact that I am working to reduce the flames.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #390
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    (Paraphrasing) "They're only doing what they are convinced is right" is a pretty strong justification.
    No - it is an explanation. They are doing what they think is right. You are doing what you think is right. At no point have I said "they are doing right." Nor have I suggested they should continue what they are doing. I have been clear: abortion is a travesty and should end. Life begins at conception/implantation. I don't know how much more clear I can be, despite your assertion that I never "take a stand."

    The ability to see the argument from both sides is the first step to trying to find solutions. The ability to see that two sides could each be composed of good people trying to do what they think is right is another step. These are steps I have taken. I am inviting others - from both sides - to take the same steps. Then, maybe, the efforts can be shifted from "war" to "solutions."

    Unfortunately, too many people seem to enjoy the "war" too much to see it end. So my success rate is low. I don't expect that to change here.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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