A Protestant Looks At Holy Week

[Apologiaphoenix]

What happens in this week?

Link

------

What does holy week look like to an outsider? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

With my wife looking into Eastern Orthodoxy, she was very excited about holy week. For those who don't know, there is apparently debate on when Easter takes place so on the 21st, we celebrated Easter at the Protestant Church. The next week we were celebrating another Easter known as Pascha at the Orthodox Church.

SecondEaster.jpg

One of the things that is done on Pascha, or rather before, is a time of Lent where something is given up which includes meat and dairy. My wife was excluded from this for medical reasons and because the priest mainly wanted her to abstain from self-harm for Lent. (To that end, she got her 11-month chip at Celebrate Recovery last night.) Keep this in mind as we go on.

Something I have said about Orthodoxy for awhile is that I question whether the traditions do go back to the original apostles or not. This is not to say that some of the rules might not be helpful. If someone wants to observe a time of Lent and it helps them in their worship and helps them honor Christ, well and good. I have no problem with that. If that becomes the sign of a true Christian, then I think there is an area of concern.

Every night of the week there was an event going on at the Orthodox Church. We were there for most of them, although not for all. We have been packing for a move to another cheaper apartment complex here in the area. My wife thoroughly enjoys them. Myself, not so much. As I have let be known on here previously, I really don't think statements made to Mary or the saints go back to the apostles.

On Saturday night, everyone meets at the church at 11 P.M. Yes. You heard that right. P.M. We then go in and each of us is given a candle that is unlit. A few minutes before midnight, the whole place goes dark. Then around midnight, the priest starts speaking about Christ being risen and has a lit candle. He lights a candle of some others upfront and they in turn spread that light so before too long, everyone is holding a lit candle.

There is also a portable tomb carried much like the pallbearers carry the coffin at a funeral through the doors. We all go outside together in the middle of the night with our candles to continue the surface. To go back in, the tomb is placed at the doors and everyone has to kneel some to go under it and go inside the building.

In all honesty, though, I was watching most of the time and thinking "I hope someone doesn't accidentally light someone else's hair on fire." This is not to say that way of worship is wrong, but it is to say that this is just the way that I think about things.

Everyone is invited after the service to the feast. My wife and I had no interest in the food being served and we wanted to get to sleep. We didn't get home until around 2:35 A.M. Then, we had to get up in the morning again for a noon service. The feast has a lot of the foods people abstain from during the Lent period so it wasn't a major deal for me anyway.

I do think the Orthodox take the resurrection seriously, but what matters to me is do the laity in the pews do so? I will freely say that sadly many Protestant Churches have abandoned their intellectual responsibilities without thinking about the resurrection, but I suspect this is more of our Americanism coming through than something problematic in Protestantism itself.

When my wife was on her journey and visiting a Catholic Church, we met with a priest to ask questions. When she told him she was looking for something deeper, he gave an answer I 100% agree with and still hold to this day. "What you are looking for, you will find by going deeper in Jesus." For my own wife, I think the ritual and order of Orthodoxy is more helpful to her. Could she have found similar in an Anglican Church? Perhaps, but the nearest was about 30 miles away from us.

For me, it's not the same way, and ultimately that's okay. As long as one holds to what is essential to being a Christian, I think we should all strive to unite together. Do I wonder how many of the laity in the Orthodox Church are taking the resurrection seriously? Yes. I wonder the same about the Protestant and Catholic Churches as well.

So Holy Week is certainly an interesting experience, but I am thankful to be back to the way things normally are and while I can handle it, having a church service at midnight is something I am thankful only takes place once a year. I also do not have any sides on the debate of the true date of Easter. What matters is Christ is risen, something we should all celebrate.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

[One Bad Pig]

I think it's less important to stick with exactly what was done by the apostles - which in any case is simply impossible to discern at this late date - than to stick to practices consonant with what they did. Protestant non-liturgical worship, for example, is highly unlikely to have pre-Reformation historical antecedents.

The Orthodox method for calculating Pascha (Easter) is acknowledged by many Orthodox to not be as accurate as it could be; however, it is still used in the interest of unity. My parish splits the celebration into Resurrection Matins, which is done at 8:00 PM Saturday, and the Paschal Divine Liturgy, which is done at our usual time of 10:00 Sunday morning. It certainly makes things easier for those with children.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I think it's less important to stick with exactly what was done by the apostles - which in any case is simply impossible to discern at this late date - than to stick to practices consonant with what they did. Protestant non-liturgical worship, for example, is highly unlikely to have pre-Reformation historical antecedents.

I do have a problem with saying that "This is what has been done for 2,000 years." I seriously doubt that in an early church, people lined up individually to get a small piece of bread and a sip of wine. You read the Corinthian letters and people were either starving, getting drunk, or some other sort of thing. As for the worship style back then, I really don't know. Again, Corinthians seems to have random people standing up saying things.

The Orthodox method for calculating Pascha (Easter) is acknowledged by many Orthodox to not be as accurate as it could be; however, it is still used in the interest of unity. My parish splits the celebration into Resurrection Matins, which is done at 8:00 PM Saturday, and the Paschal Divine Liturgy, which is done at our usual time of 10:00 Sunday morning. It certainly makes things easier for those with children.

This is a debate I really have no interest in. What matters is Jesus rose even if we weren't 100% sure of the date.

[thewriteranon]

This is a debate I really have no interest in. What matters is Jesus rose even if we weren't 100% sure of the date.

The debate isn't about the date. It's an intra-Orthodox thing about calendars and I don't think anyone would expect a Protestant to care.

[One Bad Pig]

I do have a problem with saying that "This is what has been done for 2,000 years." I seriously doubt that in an early church, people lined up individually to get a small piece of bread and a sip of wine. You read the Corinthian letters and people were either starving, getting drunk, or some other sort of thing. As for the worship style back then, I really don't know. Again, Corinthians seems to have random people standing up saying things.

Structure was certainly enhanced as aids to focusing on the intent of the service and church order, but the early Christian liturgy indisputably arose out of Jewish synagogue worship; see, e.g., The Jewish Background of the Christian Liturgy by W. O. E. Oesterley (1925). There's a reason why none of the New Testament authors saw a need to include a description of how services were done. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge understands that significant development has occurred since, though similarities are still clearly recognizable. Non-liturgical Protestant services are necessarily a radical break with the past and based on highly subjective interpretations of scripture written to address specific problem areas. Most don't have "random people standing up saying things," let alone even a 'remembrance' of the Eucharist explicitly commanded by Jesus!

This is a debate I really have no interest in. What matters is Jesus rose even if we weren't 100% sure of the date.

You brought it up, so you clearly have SOME interest, yes? Heck, I was trying to meet you halfway here, and you just brushed what I said aside.

I agree that the material point is that Jesus rose.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Structure was certainly enhanced as aids to focusing on the intent of the service and church order, but the early Christian liturgy indisputably arose out of Jewish synagogue worship; see, e.g., The Jewish Background of the Christian Liturgy by W. O. E. Oesterley (1925). There's a reason why none of the New Testament authors saw a need to include a description of how services were done. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge understands that significant development has occurred since, though similarities are still clearly recognizable. Non-liturgical Protestant services are necessarily a radical break with the past and based on highly subjective interpretations of scripture written to address specific problem areas. Most don't have "random people standing up saying things," let alone even a 'remembrance' of the Eucharist explicitly commanded by Jesus!

I'd want to look into this more and definitely with something later than 1925 to see if there is any more research on this.

You brought it up, so you clearly have SOME interest, yes? Heck, I was trying to meet you halfway here, and you just brushed what I said aside.

I agree that the material point is that Jesus rose.

I don't think I brushed you aside. If anything, I thought I was agreeing with you. I brought it up so some readers who might not be familiar with Orthodoxy wouldn't be confused saying "I thought Easter was the week before...."

[One Bad Pig]

I'd want to look into this more and definitely with something later than 1925 to see if there is any more research on this.

I brought that one up because 1) I found it for free on archive.org and 2) it's a non-Orthodox author. A much more recent book is Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity with the Synagogue, the Temple, and the Early Church by Benjamin D. Williams and Harold B. Anstall, which was just updated this year.

I don't think I brushed you aside. If anything, I thought I was agreeing with you. I brought it up so some readers who might not be familiar with Orthodoxy wouldn't be confused saying "I thought Easter was the week before...."

I think we're operating on different wavelengths here. I'm not referring to your opening post, but your response to my further information with "I'm not interested in that" - which reads, to me, very much like brushing aside my response. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I brought that one up because 1) I found it for free on archive.org and 2) it's a non-Orthodox author. A much more recent book is Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity with the Synagogue, the Temple, and the Early Church by Benjamin D. Williams and Harold B. Anstall, which was just updated this year.

That could be interesting to read sometime. I have a lot of books on my to-read list, but I can keep that in mind.

I think we're operating on different wavelengths here. I'm not referring to your opening post, but your response to my further information with "I'm not interested in that" - which reads, to me, very much like brushing aside my response. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong.

Probably. I heard you saying there's a lot of debate and it's not so certain so I was taking it as just an offhand thing and thinking the fundamental thing agreed on is that it happened.

I consider it like the birth of Jesus. After JPH's research for his Christmas book, I'm more convinced it was December 25 when Jesus was born, but it's not a hill I'm dying on. What matters is He was born.

[thewriteranon]

Probably. I heard you saying there's a lot of debate and it's not so certain so I was taking it as just an offhand thing and thinking the fundamental thing agreed on is that it happened.

I consider it like the birth of Jesus. After JPH's research for his Christmas book, I'm more convinced it was December 25 when Jesus was born, but it's not a hill I'm dying on. What matters is He was born.

The Orthodox Pascha thing is different than the date of Christmas. As I said, it's a thing about calendars, not an argument over the exact date when Jesus rose. In the early Church there were varying dates for Pascha and one of the things the fathers at the first council of Nicaea thought was important was to get all Christians on the same page so they created a way for calculating Pascha. At the time the entire world was on the Julian calendar, so that is what they used. The Julian calendar collects errors rapidly. Eventually the West switched to the Gregorian calendar. The East is split between the Julian and a slightly more accurate calendar than the Gregorian (although it lines up with the Gregorian for the next 800 years or so). However, in the interest of unity, all Orthodox use the Julian calendar as the starting point for calculating Pascha, which is why sometimes our Pascha is on the same day and sometimes it varies by up to four or five weeks.

[One Bad Pig]

That could be interesting to read sometime. I have a lot of books on my to-read list, but I can keep that in mind.

You 'n' me both.

[One Bad Pig]

The Orthodox Pascha thing is different than the date of Christmas. As I said, it's a thing about calendars, not an argument over the exact date when Jesus rose. In the early Church there were varying dates for Pascha and one of the things the fathers at the first council of Nicaea thought was important was to get all Christians on the same page so they created a way for calculating Pascha. At the time the entire world was on the Julian calendar, so that is what they used. The Julian calendar collects errors rapidly. Eventually the West switched to the Gregorian calendar. The East is split between the Julian and a slightly more accurate calendar than the Gregorian (although it lines up with the Gregorian for the next 800 years or so). However, in the interest of unity, all Orthodox use the Julian calendar as the starting point for calculating Pascha, which is why sometimes our Pascha is on the same day and sometimes it varies by up to four or five weeks.

Also, a table is used for calculating when the full moon will be, which doesn't always reflect reality.

[Terraceth]

I think it's less important to stick with exactly what was done by the apostles - which in any case is simply impossible to discern at this late date - than to stick to practices consonant with what they did. Protestant non-liturgical worship, for example, is highly unlikely to have pre-Reformation historical antecedents.

Well, Eusebius states that the practice of fasting prior to Easter is from apostolic tradition (Church History, 5.23.1), though he was writing in the 4th century. But he does provide quotations from Irenaeus (late 2nd century) who says that the fasting (or more specifically, the variety of customs in the fast) "had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors". Irenaeus also says that Polycarp claimed to have learned his fasting practices from the apostle John(!), which would demonstrate apostolic origin, but that is admittedly secondhand information.

It's less clear whether the specific 40 days of Lent is of apostolic origin or not; Irenaeus does note diversity as to the length of the fast ("For some consider themselves bound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day"). But a period of some kind of fasting prior to Easter goes back to the mid 2nd century at the latest, and quite likely goes back to the apostles.

[One Bad Pig]

Well, Eusebius states that the practice of fasting prior to Easter is from apostolic tradition (Church History, 5.23.1), though he was writing in the 4th century. But he does provide quotations from Irenaeus (late 2nd century) who says that the fasting (or more specifically, the variety of customs in the fast) "had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors". Irenaeus also says that Polycarp claimed to have learned his fasting practices from the apostle John(!), which would demonstrate apostolic origin, but that is admittedly secondhand information.

It's less clear whether the specific 40 days of Lent is of apostolic origin or not; Irenaeus does note diversity as to the length of the fast ("For some consider themselves bound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day"). But a period of some kind of fasting prior to Easter goes back to the mid 2nd century at the latest, and quite likely goes back to the apostles.

Yes, the practice of fasting in particular appears to have originated with Jesus' words to the apostles "when you fast...." (and Jesus' words to those who questioned the disciples' lack of fasting to the effect that when [He] was absent, then they would fast).

[Terraceth]

The Orthodox Pascha thing is different than the date of Christmas. As I said, it's a thing about calendars, not an argument over the exact date when Jesus rose. In the early Church there were varying dates for Pascha and one of the things the fathers at the first council of Nicaea thought was important was to get all Christians on the same page so they created a way for calculating Pascha. At the time the entire world was on the Julian calendar, so that is what they used. The Julian calendar collects errors rapidly. Eventually the West switched to the Gregorian calendar. The East is split between the Julian and a slightly more accurate calendar than the Gregorian (although it lines up with the Gregorian for the next 800 years or so). However, in the interest of unity, all Orthodox use the Julian calendar as the starting point for calculating Pascha, which is why sometimes our Pascha is on the same day and sometimes it varies by up to four or five weeks.

This is similar to how Easter can be several weeks away from Passover even though it's supposed to be the Sunday after, due to the Hebrew calendar being off. The calculations set for the Hebrew Calendar back in the 12th century result in it on average drifting a day every 217 years or so, resulting in the divergence between Easter and Passover some years. I'm sure they'll fix it at some point, but if left unchecked Passover will actually become a summer celebration (granted, it'll take tens of thousands of years for it to get that extreme).

[tabibito]

This is similar to how Easter can be several weeks away from Passover even though it's supposed to be the Sunday after, due to the Hebrew calendar being off. The calculations set for the Hebrew Calendar back in the 12th century result in it on average drifting a day every 217 years or so, resulting in the divergence between Easter and Passover some years. I'm sure they'll fix it at some point, but if left unchecked Passover will actually become a summer celebration (granted, it'll take tens of thousands of years for it to get that extreme).

No OFFICIAL readjustments are possible without the Sanhedrin. Hillel II recognised that the Sanhedrin's days were numbered and introduced a calendar which allowed for a (more or less) accurate setting for the beginning of the year - thus the system currently in place has been set by the Sanhedrin. That calendar served well into the twentieth century, but is now becoming unreliable/unworkable. The last I saw of comment on the situation, the system was tipped to revert to the original procedure of personally observing the phases of the moon year by year - though of course almanacs will reduce the tedium of physical observations (perhaps). What might happen with regard to Hillel II's fix (preventing two consecutive Sabbath days of rest) hasn't been discussed (as far as I know). I don't expect that the Jews will want to revert to the pre-Hillel system though.