Limited atonement?

[tabibito]

Except, of course, for Paul.

Romans 6:18 -You have become slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:20 - you WERE slaves to sin
Romans 7:14 - I am of the flesh
Romans 8:8 - those who are in the flesh cannot please God
Romans 8:9 - you are not in the flesh (if the Spirit of God is in you)
Romans 8:7 - The mind set on the flesh is hostile to God: cannot submit to God.

Paul doesn't contradict John (1 John 5:18) nor James (2:24) - he just points out that there are shades of grey, and a progressive development.

[Obsidian]

And how many years have you been studying Koine Greek?
If it is less than 10 you have some catching up to do.

If your translation based on 10 years' work doesn't make any sense in the context of the verse, I would say that your study hasn't been very productive.

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning

The spiritual identity is born of God. The flesh is not.

Romans 8:22-23

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[Cow Poke]

Romans 6:18 -You have become slaves of righteousness.
Romans 6:20 - you WERE slaves to sin
Romans 7:14 - I am of the flesh
Romans 8:8 - those who are in the flesh cannot please God
Romans 8:9 - you are not in the flesh (if the Spirit of God is in you)
Romans 8:7 - The mind set on the flesh is hostile to God: cannot submit to God.

Paul doesn't contradict John (1 John 5:18) nor James (2:24) - he just points out that there are shades of grey, and a progressive development.

Nor does he say he has stopped sinning, as you appear to indicate here...

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning

I think Paul was confessing that he still sins, but it's not his choice to continue in sin. He is focused on the Spiritual battle to live a more consecrated life.

[Sparko]

Nor does he say he has stopped sinning, as you appear to indicate here...



I think Paul was confessing that he still sins, but it's not his choice to continue in sin. He is focused on the Spiritual battle to live a more consecrated life.

Yeah, context is important. John was talking about someone deliberately choosing to sin because they don't care. Someone like that would not belong to God, they would be faking it.

Right in the first chapter of the letter he says,

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Does Tab think he contradicts himself a couple of pages later?

[tabibito]

Yeah, context is important. John was talking about someone deliberately choosing to sin because they don't care. Someone like that would not belong to God, they would be faking it.

Right in the first chapter of the letter he says,

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Does Tab think he contradicts himself a couple of pages later?

Not in the least. I've even seen Bibles that actually translate 1 John 1:10 so as not to give a false impression of what he says in verse 8.
Then there's 1 John 2:3-6 (I don't think he's talking about people who keep the commandments from time to time)
1 John 2:29
1 John 3:4-6, 9-10, 20-24 (rather interesting - believe AND love one another)
4:19-21; 5:18

[Sparko]

Not in the least. I've even seen Bibles that actually translate 1 John 1:10 so as not to give a false impression of what he says in verse 8.
Then there's 1 John 2:3-6 (I don't think he's talking about people who keep the commandments from time to time)
1 John 2:29
1 John 3:4-6, 9-10, 20-24 (rather interesting - believe AND love one another)
4:19-21; 5:18

Your arguments are hard to follow, especially when you just jump a bunch of verse numbers, and without any actual narrative argument.

If you are fishing for translations that fit your preconceptions you are doing it wrong Tabby. That is eisegesis. And the bible needs to be read in an internally consistent way. You can't interpret difficult verses and claim they are battling each other for instance. You need to reconcile them in a way that they agree. So if you see one verse saying that we continue to sin after being saved (and your own life experience shows that to be true) then you can't read a verse like 1 John 5:18 and claim that it is saying we won't sin if we are saved.

And why did you bring that up anyway? It was out of the blue and has nothing to do with the discussion as far as I can tell.


Do you continue to sin, Tabby? If so maybe you are not saved then?

[lee_merrill]

True. But can someone point to a scripture where Jesus states that he lays down His life for both His sheep and the goats ?

"... and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." (Jn 6:51)

Blessings,
Lee

[tabibito]

Your arguments are hard to follow, especially when you just jump a bunch of verse numbers, and without any actual narrative argument.

In one post, I pointed out, in bullet form, sections of Romans that seemingly contradict each other, and laying them out in their relevant pairs. I expected that to make it apparent that the issues were far more complex than is generally portrayed in debate. In the later post, given that those verses which didn't support one side of the debate were hand-waved out of existence, I followed up with a list of scriptures that make it clear hand-waving them off can't be done.

If you are fishing for translations that fit your preconceptions you are doing it wrong Tabby.

Indeed I would be, were I to do it. But I am aware that 1 John 1:8 and 10 are clearer in the Koine Greek than they are in translation. 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have never sinned, we make him a liar and his word has no place in us. is part of the whole that includes verse 8, and modifies what verse 8 is saying.

That is eisegesis.

Indeed it would be.

And the bible needs to be read in an internally consistent way.

You can't interpret difficult verses and claim they are battling each other for instance.

Of course you can - it is a necessary preliminary to the resolution of paradoxes.

You need to reconcile them in a way that they agree.

Assuming that is a viable outcome, yes. Some sections present two sides of a coin, as in: He who is not with us is against us, and, who is not against us is for us. It is in this latter category that the verses about holy living fall.

So if you see one verse saying that we continue to sin after being saved (and your own life experience shows that to be true) then you can't read a verse like 1 John 5:18 and claim that it is saying we won't sin if we are saved.

Which is true enough - but that would also mean that no Christian could ever become spiritual, which would also mean that Paul was wrong when he referred to Christians as Spiritual. He also refers to Carnal Christians - those who are not yet mature Christians - and he refers to mature Christians as Spiritual.

And why did you bring that up anyway? It was out of the blue and has nothing to do with the discussion as far as I can tell.

It is relevant to the requirement for holy living, which OSAS and SOLA FIDE claim to be impossible. The capacity to become saints (in the "having conformed themselves to holiness" sense) is affirmed by the Eastern Church, and was affirmed by the Westminster Divines, and by John Wesley ... to mention but a few - the relevant term is Theosis.

Do you continue to sin, Tabby? If so maybe you are not saved then?

Well - it seems that you understand what is written at least.
from sin.jpg

OK - how do I get rid of the wrong pic?

[Sparko]

So answer me Tabibito, have you stopped sinning? or are you unsaved? Apparently according to you it is one or the other.

[tabibito]

So answer me Tabibito, have you stopped sinning? or are you unsaved? Apparently according to you it is one or the other.

I have already answered - but just in case the answer wasn't clear, the time will come when I can answer "yes" to that question. With due diligence, that will be within my life-time.

.... so now my turn to ask, "have you been set free from sin?" or an even easier question ... "What sin is it impossible to stop committing?"

[Sparko]

I have already answered - but just in case the answer wasn't clear, the time will come when I can answer "yes" to that question. With due diligence, that will be within my life-time.

.... so now my turn to ask, "have you been set free from sin?" or an even easier question ... "What sin is it impossible to stop committing?"

But that's not what the verse says (or what you claim it means). It says that "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin."

And yet you just admitted you continue to sin. So either you taking that in the wooden literal sense is wrong, or you are not "born of God" and saved.

I have indeed been set free from sin, through the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean that I don't continue TO sin. It means I am no longer accountable for my sins. In that way I have been freed.

But that is not what you claim 1 John 5:18 says.

[tabibito]

But that's not what the verse says (or what you claim it means). It says that "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin."

And yet you just admitted you continue to sin. So either you taking that in the wooden literal sense is wrong, or you are not "born of God" and saved.

I have indeed been set free from sin, through the atonement and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean that I don't continue TO sin. It means I am no longer accountable for my sins. In that way I have been freed.

But that is not what you claim 1 John 5:18 says.

So then, what DOES 1 John 5:18 say? I just checked 8 versions (including one German and one Japanese) - the meaning is the same in each, though the wording does vary. Which means either that a Biblical author's words have to be redefined to make them say what they're supposed to mean, or he meant what he said. The first option won't gain any traction. And that leaves the question, which can be presented in a variety of ways, hanging - which sin is impossible to stop doing? Which sin did Jesus (or any Biblical author) claim it was OK to continue doing? Which sin does the Holy Spirit not bestow the power on a believer to overcome?
Near as I can tell - the New Testament requires the believer to exercise diligence, under the aegis of the Holy Spirit, to purify himself (1 John 3: 2b-4a; James 4:8). That is not expected to be an instant or immediate change, but one that progressively occurs - and it is not done without effort on the part of the believer.

[Sentient 6]

"... and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." (Jn 6:51)

Blessings,
Lee

Ah yes ! " I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." The world, from the perspective of Jesus and His Apostles comprised of Jews and Gentiles.

John 10:16 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I still find in the scriptures that Christ still only laid down His life for His sheep. No goats mentioned.

[tabibito]

Ah yes ! " I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." The world, from the perspective of Jesus and His Apostles comprised of Jews and Gentiles.

John 10:16 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I still find in the scriptures that Christ still only laid down His life for His sheep. No goats mentioned.

This do being true. Also he told Peter to feed his sheep, not the goats that belong to Joe Bloggs down the road.

[Sentient 6]

It's not based on reformed theology. Reformed theology borrowed it.

Augustine, City of God, Book XXI

The reformers were heavily influenced by Augustine. But Augustine is not scripture. Augustine changed his views from time to time. That is why the principle of sola scriptura was so foundational to the Reformation.

John 6
Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; 38 for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day

OSAS does not deal completely with Jesus' theology here. I believe the concept of Perseverance of the Saints is a better theological option over something like OSAS.