Regarding the nature of faith and whether faith is the sole condition for salvation, as interesting as these topics are, do not these issues take us a bit far afield from the subject of this thread?
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While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostRegarding the nature of faith and whether faith is the sole condition for salvation, as interesting as these topics are, do not these issues take us a bit far afield from the subject of this thread?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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So - to return to the topic ...
I think that Jesus died that all might partake of or be given opportunity to be reconciled to God - but that atonement is limited to those who actually accept the offer.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostBare assertion.
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Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Justified is not saved. NOW justified WILL BE saved. (or perhaps there is a difference between being saved and being saved from wrath?)
1 Cor 15:1-2 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Saved by the gospel ... provided that you believe.
2 Thess 2:10 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
No love of truth = not saved
Authorship by Paul disputed
1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Saved by heeding and continuing in (sound) doctrine.
And of course, if writings other than Paul's are taken into account - where no amount of twisting will change what they said - the other factors involved in salvation are manifest.
Justification is God's removing sin from a person and imputing Christ's righteousness upon them.
And righteousness is being declared sinless and pure through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
And those that are made righteous are saved. Only the sinners are condemned.
So you are playing semantic games with various terms trying to separate them. They are all related. And are all tied to faith in Jesus Christ. No works. You can't earn salvation. And merely declaring your allegiance and faith in Christ is not a work. It is the outcome of being saved. Of believing.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo - to return to the topic ...
I think that Jesus died that all might partake of or be given opportunity to be reconciled to God - but that atonement is limited to those who actually accept the offer.
and I would add to those who cannot grasp the concept or right v wrong because they are too young, or perhaps mentally disabled.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGalations 2, Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 disagree with you.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Sentient 6Can anyone here explain the history behind the theology of OSAS ? Because from what I can tell, it seems to be borrowed from reformed theology. But, borrowed without any theological cause.
Augustine, City of God, Book XXI
Chapter 19.— Of Those Who Promise Impunity from All Sins Even to Heretics, Through Virtue of Their Participation of the Body of Christ.
So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live forever. [John 6:50-51] Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.Last edited by Obsidian; 05-21-2019, 10:27 PM.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostThose are all Pauline. Better IMO to cite John 6, which shows that the only "work" needed to obtain eternal life is to "believe" in Christ.Last edited by tabibito; 05-21-2019, 10:36 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Obsidian View Post@Tabibito, your "translation" makes no sense at all.
τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος
this - is - the - work (Nominative) - of - God - so that - you might/can believe - into - whom (accusative) - (he) sent - that_one/he
This/that ... work* of God is so that you might believe on (him) whom he sent // "Work" and "this/that" are nominative, thus a compound grammatical subject and performing the verb "is".
And that resolves the non-sequitur that follows in the standard translations.
ειπον ουν αυτω τι ουν ποιεις συ σημειον ινα ιδωμεν και πιστευσωμεν σοι τι εργαζη
they said - so then/accordingly - to him - what? - so then/accordingly - do/make - you - sign - SO THAT - WE MIGHT SEE - and - WE MIGHT BELIEVE - in you - what? - work.
so they said to him, what sign then do you perform that we might see and believe in you? What work?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostUnder your absurd translation, WHAT is the work of God?
What sign was available to the people who were asking the question. "How did you get here?" - they knew it was impossible for Jesus to be in that place at that time, which is readily apparent to anyone reading the relevant passage.
pisteuo sbjnctv.jpg ... ina ptcl.jpg1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Last edited by tabibito; 05-22-2019, 12:57 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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