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Thread: Limited atonement?

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Limited atonement?

    Did Jesus only atone, on the cross, for those who would believe in him?

    Colossians 1:20 ... and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    1 Timothy 2:6 ... who gave himself as a ransom for all men...

    2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all...

    And then this would be atonement for everyone.

    Certainly Jesus did lay down his life for the sheep (Jn. 10:15). And is there a verse saying Jesus laid down his life for everyone, too?

    John 6:51 This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    What is the good news that the non-elect are being commanded to repent and believe? That God loves other people? That the elect's sins have been paid for?

    Now the reply might be that "repent and believe the good news" is only directed really to the elect. But this verse seems to indicate differently:

    2 Thess. 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    What then is the truth, that if they had loved it, would have saved them, if Christ did not die for them? What can Paul mean, if there is no atonement for them? His statement seems to imply clearly that the alternative to their unbelief was salvation.

    2 Thess. 2:12 ... and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    Why are they condemned for not believing that God does not love them, that Christ did not pay the price for their sins, for refusing to believe that there is no atonement for them?

    So then what was the truth they were to believe? Must this not be the gospel? For if they had believed it, they would have been saved.

    But for the non-elect, if limited atonement is true, Christ did not die for them, thus would it have saved them, if they had somehow believed that Christ did not pay the price for their sins?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    I thought Jesus was pretty clear about this:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


    The atonement is for everyone as a free gift but each of us has to take that gift. It is useless if you ignore it or don't even believe it is there. Like a governor giving a free pardon to any prisoner who asks to be let out of prison. If they don't know about the offer or don't ask to be set free how will they be set free? that is why we should be telling our fellow prisoners about the offer.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The atonement is for everyone as a free gift but each of us has to take that gift. It is useless if you ignore it or don't even believe it is there. Like a governor giving a free pardon to any prisoner who asks to be let out of prison. If they don't know about the offer or don't ask to be set free how will they be set free? that is why we should be telling our fellow prisoners about the offer.
    Have you ever looked at the curious case of the man who refused a presidential pardon from the death penalty, and SCOTUS ruled that the pardon could not be forced upon him?

    The Man Who Refused A Pardon

    Imagine being convicted of a crime you deeply regretted – intentional or unintentional – and being offered a pardon to absolve you of any penalty. Would you accept it? Let me tell you about a man who did not.

    In 1829 two men, George Wilson and James Porter, robbed a United States mail carrier. Both were subsequently captured and tried in a court of law. In May 1830 both men were found guilty of six charges, including robbery of the mail “and putting the life of the driver in jeopardy.” Both Wilson and Porter received their sentences: Execution by hanging, to be carried out on July 2.

    Porter was executed on schedule, but Wilson was not. Influential friends pleaded for mercy to the President of the United States, Andrew Jackson, on his behalf. President Jackson issued a formal pardon, dropping all charges. Wilson would have to serve only a prison term of 20 years for his other crimes. Incredibly, George Wilson refused the pardon!

    An official report stated Wilson chose to “waive and decline any advantage or protection which might be supposed to arise from the pardon….” Wilson also stated he “…had nothing to say, and did not wish in any manner to avail himself in order to avoid sentence….” The U.S. Supreme Court determined, “The court cannot give the prisoner the benefit of the pardon, unless he claims the benefit of it…. It is a grant to him: it is his property; and he may accept it or not as he pleases.” Chief Justice John Marshall wrote, “A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws…. (But) delivery is not completed without acceptance. It may then be rejected by the person to whom it is tendered, and…we have no power in a court to force it on him.”
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  5. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    That seems logical

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

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    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
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    I hold the position of common grace. Christ died for all without distinction, but the benefits of it are only for those who trust in him.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Have you ever looked at the curious case of the man who refused a presidential pardon from the death penalty, and SCOTUS ruled that the pardon could not be forced upon him?

    The Man Who Refused A Pardon

    Imagine being convicted of a crime you deeply regretted – intentional or unintentional – and being offered a pardon to absolve you of any penalty. Would you accept it? Let me tell you about a man who did not.

    In 1829 two men, George Wilson and James Porter, robbed a United States mail carrier. Both were subsequently captured and tried in a court of law. In May 1830 both men were found guilty of six charges, including robbery of the mail “and putting the life of the driver in jeopardy.” Both Wilson and Porter received their sentences: Execution by hanging, to be carried out on July 2.

    Porter was executed on schedule, but Wilson was not. Influential friends pleaded for mercy to the President of the United States, Andrew Jackson, on his behalf. President Jackson issued a formal pardon, dropping all charges. Wilson would have to serve only a prison term of 20 years for his other crimes. Incredibly, George Wilson refused the pardon!

    An official report stated Wilson chose to “waive and decline any advantage or protection which might be supposed to arise from the pardon….” Wilson also stated he “…had nothing to say, and did not wish in any manner to avail himself in order to avoid sentence….” The U.S. Supreme Court determined, “The court cannot give the prisoner the benefit of the pardon, unless he claims the benefit of it…. It is a grant to him: it is his property; and he may accept it or not as he pleases.” Chief Justice John Marshall wrote, “A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws…. (But) delivery is not completed without acceptance. It may then be rejected by the person to whom it is tendered, and…we have no power in a court to force it on him.”

    I decided to look that up because sometimes these example seem to good to be true and made up to fit a sermon or something. But this is real! I found the actual court decision!

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/32/150

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I decided to look that up because sometimes these example seem to good to be true and made up to fit a sermon or something. But this is real! I found the actual court decision!

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/32/150
    Yes, I almost included the SCOTUS reference, for that very reason. I don't like using sermon illustrations that I can't validate as true, and the internetzweb makes that pretty easy. For this one, I'll include the actual supreme court reference - https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/32/150/

    One of my other favorite illustrations is on faith - the guy who crossed Niagara Falls with a man in a wheel barrow -- that's also real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Blondin
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  10. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    The passages that seem to apply to all humanity may actually have different meanings than expected.

    John 3:16-17 may imply, in part, that the world would have needed to be destroyed if the Messiah had not come. Without this saving of the world the alternative may have been the destruction of the world like with Noah.

    A distinction may be found between being saved and being justified -- or there may be some other distinctions why a passage may be misconstrued as giving everyone eternal life

    The use of "all" often has a limited scope derived from the context. We often can recognize the limited meaning of "all" in a given text.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    The passages that seem to apply to all humanity may actually have different meanings than expected.

    John 3:16-17 may imply, in part, that the world would have needed to be destroyed if the Messiah had not come. Without this saving of the world the alternative may have been the destruction of the world like with Noah.

    A distinction may be found between being saved and being justified -- or there may be some other distinctions why a passage may be misconstrued as giving everyone eternal life

    The use of "all" often has a limited scope derived from the context. We often can recognize the limited meaning of "all" in a given text.
    By way of adding to your post:

    Given that "all" has use, both as hyperbole and in the circumscribed sense (informally in English, more formally in Koine Greek), "all" must be read with care. Koine Greek has an "all without exception:" apas ("a" being added to the ordinary "all," pas) - though "apas" is not necessarily needed to indicate all without exception. "All" (pas) is used interchangeably with "most" in at least one Septuagint passage.

    Distinction between "justified" and "saved" is explicit in Romans 10:10
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  13. Amen mikewhitney amen'd this post.
  14. #10
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    The passages that seem to apply to all humanity may actually have different meanings than expected.
    ...
    The use of "all" often has a limited scope derived from the context. We often can recognize the limited meaning of "all" in a given text.
    Though I think the context indicates all people here:

    "For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
    and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." (Col 1:19–20)

    "... who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." (1 Tim. 2:4–6)

    "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
    and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf." (2 Co 5:14–15)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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