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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Limited atonement?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    The NT affirms both limited atonement, and universal atonement. So both doctrines have NT support. Any convincing apologia for either case, has to deal with all the NT evidence for the other, and has to dispose adequately of all the evidence that does not agree with the doctrine being supported by the apologia. Otherwise, such an apologia is not dealing with everything that the NT says on the topic.
    It is true that some scriptural texts deal with the death of Christ specifically in relation to believers/the church (e.g. Jn 10.11–18; Eph. 5.25–26). Nevertheless, other texts deal more broadly with the scope of the atonement, indicating that Christ’s redemptive death procured salvation for the entire human race (e.g. 1 Tim. 2:6; 1 Jn 2.2). Harmonising the biblical data does not pose a problem for proponents of universal/unlimited atonement any more than does Galatians 2.20, where Paul indicates that Christ gave himself for the apostle. The Son of God gave himself for Paul, the church, and the world.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

    Comment


    • #17
      First, are we all on the same page that we are talking about penal substitutionary atonement ? That we are not only saved by death of the Son, but by His perfect obedience to the Father as well ?
      “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #18
        Also, it never made sense to me that Christ would atone for the sins of someone whom God knew was going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the judgment. And this is regardless of what your view is on how God " knows " things.
        “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sentient 6 View Post
          it never made sense to me...
          ...Is never a valid reason to reject a doctrine.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ReformedApologist
            I hold the position of common grace. Christ died for all without distinction, but the benefits of it are only for those who trust in him.
            Those who don't trust in him even still get some of the benefits. In my opinion, that is what at least some of the passages are specifically referring to -- e.g., 1 Timothy 4:10.

            1 Timothy 4:10

            For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Comment


            • #21
              OSAS depends on Sola Fide being true.
              The claim that Sola Fide was promoted by Paul is demolished by Romans 10:10.
              Rom 10:10 The outcome of faith is righteousness - The outcome of CONFESSING with the mouth is salvation.
              OSAS is therefore a house of cards.
              And that is even before the definition of "faith" as "belief" begins to be examined.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                OSAS depends on Sola Fide being true.
                The claim that Sola Fide was promoted by Paul is demolished by Romans 10:10.
                Rom 10:10 The outcome of faith is righteousness - The outcome of CONFESSING with the mouth is salvation.
                OSAS is therefore a house of cards.
                And that is even before the definition of "faith" as "belief" begins to be examined.
                What is your "in a nutshell" definition of "Sola Fide"?
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #23
                  The one that invariably is promoted: "Faith alone saves. Christ will lose none that the Father has given him. A person can do nothing to secure his salvation."
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    The one that invariably is promoted: "Faith alone saves. Christ will lose none that the Father has given him. A person can do nothing to secure his salvation."
                    and yet you just said that confessing that faith saves you (rom 10:10). So how does that defeat OSAS?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      and yet you just said that confessing that faith saves you (rom 10:10). So how does that defeat OSAS?
                      Rom 10:9 If you confess the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved
                      Rom 10:10 for the outcome of faith is righteousness, and the outcome of confession WITH YOUR MOUTH will be salvation

                      Which part of that is "only believe" fulfilling?
                      if there is not confession with your mouth ... ?
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Rom 10:9 If you confess the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved
                        Rom 10:10 for the outcome of faith is righteousness, and the outcome of confession WITH YOUR MOUTH will be salvation

                        Which part of that is "only believe" fulfilling?
                        if there is not confession with your mouth ... ?
                        What part do you think says that you can lose your salvation is what I am asking? You were saying that the verse defeats Once Saved Always Saved. Yet all it does is give a formula to be saved. Nothing about losing that salvation. And you are confessing your faith and belief to others, so I see anything about something other than belief there.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The verse(s) defeat Sola Fide - Without Sola Fide, OSAS can't stand (near as I can tell.) Without verse 10 and by dint of some nasty sophistry, verse 9 could be tortured into compliance with Sola Fide.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            The verse(s) defeat Sola Fide - Without Sola Fide, OSAS can't stand (near as I can tell.) Without verse 10 and by dint of some nasty sophistry, verse 9 could be tortured into compliance with Sola Fide.
                            I'm not a OSAS adherent. That said, I think Romans 10 may defeat Sola Fide...but I don't think it defeats OSAS. You can't continue to be "Always" saved if you were never saved to start with. There are better verses to cite against OSAS than Romans 10:9-10 IMHO...
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The only way you can see Romans 10:9-10 as defeating sola fide is if you view faith as merely intellectual assent, or something that does not produce any effects in the life of the believer what so ever. If "confessing with the mouth" is instead seen as the product of a living and effectual faith, then the passage doesn't really pose that much of a problem for the doctrine of sole fide.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                The verse(s) defeat Sola Fide - Without Sola Fide, OSAS can't stand (near as I can tell.) Without verse 10 and by dint of some nasty sophistry, verse 9 could be tortured into compliance with Sola Fide.
                                why not?

                                How does the verse defeat Sola fide (faith alone?) All it is saying is that you have to believe and confess your belief. Confessing isn't a "work" it is just an admission of your faith to others. And there is nothing about "unconfessing" your faith. So how does it defeat OSAS?

                                And the same author who wrote that is the one who wrote the verse that says "by faith alone and not by works" - - Do you think Paul just goes around contradicting himself?

                                Comment

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