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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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  • #31
    All it says is ... you have to DO something. "confess" with your mouth, no less.
    Verse 10 does not say that faith saves, it says that confessing with your mouth saves.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      All it says is ... you have to DO something. "confess" with your mouth, no less.
      Verse 10 does not say that faith saves, it says that confessing with your mouth saves.
      Confessing what? Your faith. That is not a "work" it is just an outcome. It is just saying not to be ashamed of your faith and to share it with the world. Calling that a "work" is just legalistically silly.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        All it says is ... you have to DO something. "confess" with your mouth, no less.
        Verse 10 does not say that faith saves, it says that confessing with your mouth saves.
        It could be that that's what it's saying.

        But maybe what it's actually saying is that you confessing Jesus as Lord shows that you have salvation? In that case the confessing that Jesus as Lord would not be primarily for the benefit of the one confessing, but for the Christians who hear his confession, so that they might know that his beliefs are in accordance with true Christian doctrine, in the manner of 1 John 4:1-3:

        Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1-3 ESV


        1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
        1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
        1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Thus, confessing Jesus as Lord would be indication that you have the Spirit of God (thus confirming your salvation), in the same way that confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (which I understand as speaking of the incarnation, which would essentially be confessing that Jesus is God, which is the same confession that Romans 10:9-10 is speaking about) is indication that you have the Spirit of God.
        Last edited by JonathanL; 05-21-2019, 10:36 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          I'm not a OSAS adherent. That said, I think Romans 10 may defeat Sola Fide...but I don't think it defeats OSAS. You can't continue to be "Always" saved if you were never saved to start with. There are better verses to cite against OSAS than Romans 10:9-10 IMHO...
          Which is why I always like the question - "if you were to die RIGHT NOW....."
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            It could be that that's what it's saying.

            But maybe what it's actually saying is that you confessing Jesus as Lord shows that you have salvation? In that case the confessing that Jesus as Lord would not be primarily for the benefit of the one confessing, but for the Christians who hear his confession, so that they might know that his beliefs are in accordance with true Christian doctrine, in the manner of 1 John 4:1-3:

            Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1-3 ESV


            1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
            1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
            1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Thus, confessing Jesus as Lord would be indication that you have the Spirit of God (thus confirming your salvation), in the same way that confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (which I understand as speaking of the incarnation, which would essentially be confessing that Jesus is God, which is the same confession that Romans 10:9-10 is speaking about) is indication that you have the Spirit of God.
            How does that fit with ...
            στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν ...
            with the mouth ... and ... gets confessed ... unto/toward/into ... salvation [δε (and) is never the first word in its clause - δε is also a contrasting "and" ... there is always a sense of "but" when it is used.]
            The first clause is parallel
            καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην
            with the heart ... for ... gets believed ... unto/toward/into ... righteousness [γαρ (for/because) is never the first word in its clause)

            The thing being believed and confessed is the preaching of the word of faith (verse 8)

            verse 9: if you confess - with your mouth - and if you believe, (then) you will be saved.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              How does that fit with ...
              στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν ...
              with the mouth ... and ... gets confessed ... unto/toward/into ... salvation [δε (and) is never the first word in its clause - δε is also a contrasting "and" ... there is always a sense of "but" when it is used.]
              The first clause is parallel
              καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην
              with the heart ... for ... gets believed ... unto/toward/into ... righteousness [γαρ (for/because) is never the first word in its clause)

              The thing being believed and confessed is the preaching of the word of faith (verse 8)

              verse 9: if you confess - with your mouth - and if you believe, (then) you will be saved.
              again you are ignoring Paul's other writings. And all this is saying is that if you were to confess and NOT believe, you would not be saved. It is saying that if you believe you should confess that you do. That Jesus is your savior. Don't hide it.

              Confession doesn't save you, faith does.

              Comment


              • #37
                None of Paul's writings support the "faith alone" story. If they did, he would stand alone and in conflict with all the other New Testament authors.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  None of Paul's writings support the "faith alone" story. If they did, he would stand alone and in conflict with all the other New Testament authors.
                  Galations 2, Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 disagree with you.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    How does that fit with ...
                    στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν ...
                    with the mouth ... and ... gets confessed ... unto/toward/into ... salvation [δε (and) is never the first word in its clause - δε is also a contrasting "and" ... there is always a sense of "but" when it is used.]
                    The first clause is parallel
                    καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην
                    with the heart ... for ... gets believed ... unto/toward/into ... righteousness [γαρ (for/because) is never the first word in its clause)

                    The thing being believed and confessed is the preaching of the word of faith (verse 8)

                    verse 9: if you confess - with your mouth - and if you believe, (then) you will be saved.
                    If you confess and believe then you will be saved does not necessarily entail if you don't confess, but still believe you will not be saved however. The latter does not follow logically from the former.

                    But on your view, would it mean that one could believe unto righteousness, but unless one confessed for whatever reason one wouldn't be saved? If believing in the heart means that you are counted as righteous, then how could the outcome be other than that you're counted as innocent at the final judgement, and therefore saved? Is it really your position that a righteous man is condemned if he doesn't get the opportunity to orally confess his faith?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      If you confess and believe then you will be saved does not necessarily entail if you don't confess, but still believe you will not be saved however. The latter does not follow logically from the former.

                      But on your view, would it mean that one could believe unto righteousness, but unless one confessed for whatever reason one wouldn't be saved? If believing in the heart means that you are counted as righteous, then how could the outcome be other than that you're counted as innocent at the final judgement, and therefore saved? Is it really your position that a righteous man is condemned if he doesn't get the opportunity to orally confess his faith?
                      So what happens to someone who can't speak? I guess they are doomed according to Tab.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Galatians 2?

                        16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


                        Romans 10:10 contrasts "justified by faith" and "saved by confessing with the mouth." This one repeats the claim that "justification is by faith"

                        verse 20b??
                        the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
                        Noting that Paul claims to live by the faith of Christ ... that's something that the righteous do. And it isn't Paul's faith, it is Christ's, conceptually similar to God's faith in Rom 3:2b shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
                        (faith here meaning "loyalty" or "dedication" or "trustworthiness" but that's another issue altogether.)

                        Ephesians 2
                        5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
                        Faith isn't mentioned ... saved by grace.

                        Ah - of course
                        8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
                        Koine Greek grammatical considerations aside (which demonstrate that faith cannot possibly be the gift), Paul already nominated grace as the active principle in salvation (verse 5), not faith. So, at best, faith + grace save. He does not say that faith alone saves even in this verse - in fact he explicitly denies it.

                        Romans 9:

                        30, 32: righteousness by faith (no mention of salvation)

                        1 Cor 9: 27 I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (= rejected). is a long way from saying that faith is sufficient for salvation.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Galatians 2?

                          16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


                          Romans 10:10 contrasts "justified by faith" and "saved by confessing with the mouth." This one repeats the claim that "justification is by faith"

                          verse 20b??
                          the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
                          Noting that Paul claims to live by the faith of Christ ... that's something that the righteous do. And it isn't Paul's faith, it is Christ's, conceptually similar to God's faith in Rom 3:2b shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
                          (faith here meaning "loyalty" or "dedication" or "trustworthiness" but that's another issue altogether.)

                          Ephesians 2
                          5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
                          Faith isn't mentioned ... saved by grace.

                          Ah - of course
                          8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
                          Koine Greek grammatical considerations aside (which demonstrate that faith cannot possibly be the gift), Paul already nominated grace as the active principle in salvation (verse 5), not faith. So, at best, faith + grace save. He does not say that faith alone saves even in this verse - in fact he explicitly denies it.

                          Romans 9:

                          30, 32: righteousness by faith (no mention of salvation)

                          1 Cor 9: 27 I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (= rejected). is a long way from saying that faith is sufficient for salvation.
                          That was quite the dodging and snipping ya got there Tabby.


                          If someone is justified and is made righteous, they are saved, are they not?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            That was quite the dodging and snipping ya got there Tabby.


                            If someone is justified and is made righteous, they are saved, are they not?
                            According to Paul, righteous is only part of being saved.

                            Romans 10:9-10 makes that plain enough.

                            So can you demonstrate where the dodging and snipping occurred?
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              According to Paul, righteous is only part of being saved.

                              Romans 10:9-10 makes that plain enough.
                              That's not what it says. We have told you that above.

                              Maybe you should define what you think Justification, Righteousness, and Salvation mean

                              So can you demonstrate where the dodging and snipping occurred?
                              In your post.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                That's not what it says. We have told you that above.

                                Maybe you should define what you think Justification, Righteousness, and Salvation mean



                                In your post.
                                Bare assertion.
                                __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

                                Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
                                Justified is not saved. NOW justified WILL BE saved. (or perhaps there is a difference between being saved and being saved from wrath?)

                                1 Cor 15:1-2 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
                                Saved by the gospel ... provided that you believe.

                                2 Thess 2:10 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
                                No love of truth = not saved

                                Authorship by Paul disputed

                                1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
                                Saved by heeding and continuing in (sound) doctrine.


                                And of course, if writings other than Paul's are taken into account - where no amount of twisting will change what they said - the other factors involved in salvation are manifest.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 05-21-2019, 01:33 PM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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