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Thread: Limited atonement?

  1. #31
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    All it says is ... you have to DO something. "confess" with your mouth, no less.
    Verse 10 does not say that faith saves, it says that confessing with your mouth saves.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  2. #32
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    All it says is ... you have to DO something. "confess" with your mouth, no less.
    Verse 10 does not say that faith saves, it says that confessing with your mouth saves.
    Confessing what? Your faith. That is not a "work" it is just an outcome. It is just saying not to be ashamed of your faith and to share it with the world. Calling that a "work" is just legalistically silly.

  3. Amen NorrinRadd, Obsidian amen'd this post.
  4. #33
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    All it says is ... you have to DO something. "confess" with your mouth, no less.
    Verse 10 does not say that faith saves, it says that confessing with your mouth saves.
    It could be that that's what it's saying.

    But maybe what it's actually saying is that you confessing Jesus as Lord shows that you have salvation? In that case the confessing that Jesus as Lord would not be primarily for the benefit of the one confessing, but for the Christians who hear his confession, so that they might know that his beliefs are in accordance with true Christian doctrine, in the manner of 1 John 4:1-3:

    Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1-3 ESV


    1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
    1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Thus, confessing Jesus as Lord would be indication that you have the Spirit of God (thus confirming your salvation), in the same way that confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (which I understand as speaking of the incarnation, which would essentially be confessing that Jesus is God, which is the same confession that Romans 10:9-10 is speaking about) is indication that you have the Spirit of God.
    Last edited by Chrawnus; 05-21-2019 at 08:36 AM.

  5. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  6. #34
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    I'm not a OSAS adherent. That said, I think Romans 10 may defeat Sola Fide...but I don't think it defeats OSAS. You can't continue to be "Always" saved if you were never saved to start with. There are better verses to cite against OSAS than Romans 10:9-10 IMHO...
    Which is why I always like the question - "if you were to die RIGHT NOW....."
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  7. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  8. #35
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    It could be that that's what it's saying.

    But maybe what it's actually saying is that you confessing Jesus as Lord shows that you have salvation? In that case the confessing that Jesus as Lord would not be primarily for the benefit of the one confessing, but for the Christians who hear his confession, so that they might know that his beliefs are in accordance with true Christian doctrine, in the manner of 1 John 4:1-3:

    Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1-3 ESV


    1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
    1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Thus, confessing Jesus as Lord would be indication that you have the Spirit of God (thus confirming your salvation), in the same way that confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (which I understand as speaking of the incarnation, which would essentially be confessing that Jesus is God, which is the same confession that Romans 10:9-10 is speaking about) is indication that you have the Spirit of God.
    How does that fit with ...
    στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν ...
    with the mouth ... and ... gets confessed ... unto/toward/into ... salvation [δε (and) is never the first word in its clause - δε is also a contrasting "and" ... there is always a sense of "but" when it is used.]
    The first clause is parallel
    καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην
    with the heart ... for ... gets believed ... unto/toward/into ... righteousness [γαρ (for/because) is never the first word in its clause)

    The thing being believed and confessed is the preaching of the word of faith (verse 8)

    verse 9: if you confess - with your mouth - and if you believe, (then) you will be saved.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #36
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    How does that fit with ...
    στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν ...
    with the mouth ... and ... gets confessed ... unto/toward/into ... salvation [δε (and) is never the first word in its clause - δε is also a contrasting "and" ... there is always a sense of "but" when it is used.]
    The first clause is parallel
    καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην
    with the heart ... for ... gets believed ... unto/toward/into ... righteousness [γαρ (for/because) is never the first word in its clause)

    The thing being believed and confessed is the preaching of the word of faith (verse 8)

    verse 9: if you confess - with your mouth - and if you believe, (then) you will be saved.
    again you are ignoring Paul's other writings. And all this is saying is that if you were to confess and NOT believe, you would not be saved. It is saying that if you believe you should confess that you do. That Jesus is your savior. Don't hide it.

    Confession doesn't save you, faith does.

  10. #37
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    None of Paul's writings support the "faith alone" story. If they did, he would stand alone and in conflict with all the other New Testament authors.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  11. #38
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    None of Paul's writings support the "faith alone" story. If they did, he would stand alone and in conflict with all the other New Testament authors.
    Galations 2, Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 disagree with you.

  12. #39
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    How does that fit with ...
    στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν ...
    with the mouth ... and ... gets confessed ... unto/toward/into ... salvation [δε (and) is never the first word in its clause - δε is also a contrasting "and" ... there is always a sense of "but" when it is used.]
    The first clause is parallel
    καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην
    with the heart ... for ... gets believed ... unto/toward/into ... righteousness [γαρ (for/because) is never the first word in its clause)

    The thing being believed and confessed is the preaching of the word of faith (verse 8)

    verse 9: if you confess - with your mouth - and if you believe, (then) you will be saved.
    If you confess and believe then you will be saved does not necessarily entail if you don't confess, but still believe you will not be saved however. The latter does not follow logically from the former.

    But on your view, would it mean that one could believe unto righteousness, but unless one confessed for whatever reason one wouldn't be saved? If believing in the heart means that you are counted as righteous, then how could the outcome be other than that you're counted as innocent at the final judgement, and therefore saved? Is it really your position that a righteous man is condemned if he doesn't get the opportunity to orally confess his faith?

  13. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
  14. #40
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    If you confess and believe then you will be saved does not necessarily entail if you don't confess, but still believe you will not be saved however. The latter does not follow logically from the former.

    But on your view, would it mean that one could believe unto righteousness, but unless one confessed for whatever reason one wouldn't be saved? If believing in the heart means that you are counted as righteous, then how could the outcome be other than that you're counted as innocent at the final judgement, and therefore saved? Is it really your position that a righteous man is condemned if he doesn't get the opportunity to orally confess his faith?
    So what happens to someone who can't speak? I guess they are doomed according to Tab.

  15. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.

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