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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Limited atonement?

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  • #46
    Regarding the nature of faith and whether faith is the sole condition for salvation, as interesting as these topics are, do not these issues take us a bit far afield from the subject of this thread?
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
      Regarding the nature of faith and whether faith is the sole condition for salvation, as interesting as these topics are, do not these issues take us a bit far afield from the subject of this thread?
      I suppose they do at that.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #48
        So - to return to the topic ...

        I think that Jesus died that all might partake of or be given opportunity to be reconciled to God - but that atonement is limited to those who actually accept the offer.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Bare assertion.
          __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

          Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
          Justified is not saved. NOW justified WILL BE saved. (or perhaps there is a difference between being saved and being saved from wrath?)

          1 Cor 15:1-2 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
          Saved by the gospel ... provided that you believe.

          2 Thess 2:10 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
          No love of truth = not saved

          Authorship by Paul disputed

          1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
          Saved by heeding and continuing in (sound) doctrine.


          And of course, if writings other than Paul's are taken into account - where no amount of twisting will change what they said - the other factors involved in salvation are manifest.
          I am finding your terse comments hard to follow Tab.

          Justification is God's removing sin from a person and imputing Christ's righteousness upon them.
          And righteousness is being declared sinless and pure through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

          Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


          And those that are made righteous are saved. Only the sinners are condemned.

          So you are playing semantic games with various terms trying to separate them. They are all related. And are all tied to faith in Jesus Christ. No works. You can't earn salvation. And merely declaring your allegiance and faith in Christ is not a work. It is the outcome of being saved. Of believing.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            So - to return to the topic ...

            I think that Jesus died that all might partake of or be given opportunity to be reconciled to God - but that atonement is limited to those who actually accept the offer.
            We agree there!

            and I would add to those who cannot grasp the concept or right v wrong because they are too young, or perhaps mentally disabled.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Galations 2, Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 disagree with you.
              Those are all Pauline. Better IMO to cite John 6, which shows that the only "work" needed to obtain eternal life is to "believe" in Christ.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                ...Is never a valid reason to reject a doctrine.
                True. But can someone point to a scripture where Jesus states that he lays down His life for both His sheep and the goats ?
                “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #53
                  Can anyone here explain the history behind the theology of OSAS ? Because from what I can tell, it seems to be borrowed from reformed theology. But, borrowed without any theological cause.
                  “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sentient 6
                    Can anyone here explain the history behind the theology of OSAS ? Because from what I can tell, it seems to be borrowed from reformed theology. But, borrowed without any theological cause.
                    It's not based on reformed theology. Reformed theology borrowed it.

                    Augustine, City of God, Book XXI

                    Chapter 19.— Of Those Who Promise Impunity from All Sins Even to Heretics, Through Virtue of Their Participation of the Body of Christ.

                    So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live forever. [John 6:50-51] Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.
                    Last edited by Obsidian; 05-21-2019, 10:27 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      Those are all Pauline. Better IMO to cite John 6, which shows that the only "work" needed to obtain eternal life is to "believe" in Christ.
                      Ah yes: John 6:29 - It takes a course in elementary Greek grammar to understand that one. Specifically, the methods required for parsing the subjunctive.ινα πιστευητε.jpg
                      Last edited by tabibito; 05-21-2019, 10:36 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        @Tabibito, your "translation" makes no sense at all.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          @Tabibito, your "translation" makes no sense at all.
                          ? That is a VERY basic translation exercise in an elementary Koine Greek grammar text.

                          τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος
                          this - is - the - work (Nominative) - of - God - so that - you might/can believe - into - whom (accusative) - (he) sent - that_one/he
                          This/that ... work* of God is so that you might believe on (him) whom he sent // "Work" and "this/that" are nominative, thus a compound grammatical subject and performing the verb "is".

                          And that resolves the non-sequitur that follows in the standard translations.

                          ειπον ουν αυτω τι ουν ποιεις συ σημειον ινα ιδωμεν και πιστευσωμεν σοι τι εργαζη
                          they said - so then/accordingly - to him - what? - so then/accordingly - do/make - you - sign - SO THAT - WE MIGHT SEE - and - WE MIGHT BELIEVE - in you - what? - work.
                          so they said to him, what sign then do you perform that we might see and believe in you? What work?
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tabibito
                            This/that ... work* of God is so that you might believe on (him) whom he sent[.]
                            Under your absurd translation, WHAT is the work of God?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              Under your absurd translation, WHAT is the work of God?
                              An absurd translation to people who don't know elementary Koine Greek? perhaps.
                              What sign was available to the people who were asking the question. "How did you get here?" - they knew it was impossible for Jesus to be in that place at that time, which is readily apparent to anyone reading the relevant passage.

                              pisteuo sbjnctv.jpg ... ina ptcl.jpg
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                purpose clauses.jpg

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjun...Ancient_Greek)
                                Last edited by tabibito; 05-22-2019, 12:57 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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