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Thread: Limited atonement?

  1. #41
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Galatians 2?

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


    Romans 10:10 contrasts "justified by faith" and "saved by confessing with the mouth." This one repeats the claim that "justification is by faith"

    verse 20b??
    the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Noting that Paul claims to live by the faith of Christ ... that's something that the righteous do. And it isn't Paul's faith, it is Christ's, conceptually similar to God's faith in Rom 3:2b shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
    (faith here meaning "loyalty" or "dedication" or "trustworthiness" but that's another issue altogether.)

    Ephesians 2
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    Faith isn't mentioned ... saved by grace.

    Ah - of course
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    Koine Greek grammatical considerations aside (which demonstrate that faith cannot possibly be the gift), Paul already nominated grace as the active principle in salvation (verse 5), not faith. So, at best, faith + grace save. He does not say that faith alone saves even in this verse - in fact he explicitly denies it.

    Romans 9:

    30, 32: righteousness by faith (no mention of salvation)

    1 Cor 9: 27 I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (= rejected). is a long way from saying that faith is sufficient for salvation.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  2. #42
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Galatians 2?

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


    Romans 10:10 contrasts "justified by faith" and "saved by confessing with the mouth." This one repeats the claim that "justification is by faith"

    verse 20b??
    the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Noting that Paul claims to live by the faith of Christ ... that's something that the righteous do. And it isn't Paul's faith, it is Christ's, conceptually similar to God's faith in Rom 3:2b shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
    (faith here meaning "loyalty" or "dedication" or "trustworthiness" but that's another issue altogether.)

    Ephesians 2
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    Faith isn't mentioned ... saved by grace.

    Ah - of course
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    Koine Greek grammatical considerations aside (which demonstrate that faith cannot possibly be the gift), Paul already nominated grace as the active principle in salvation (verse 5), not faith. So, at best, faith + grace save. He does not say that faith alone saves even in this verse - in fact he explicitly denies it.

    Romans 9:

    30, 32: righteousness by faith (no mention of salvation)

    1 Cor 9: 27 I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (= rejected). is a long way from saying that faith is sufficient for salvation.
    That was quite the dodging and snipping ya got there Tabby.


    If someone is justified and is made righteous, they are saved, are they not?

  3. #43
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That was quite the dodging and snipping ya got there Tabby.


    If someone is justified and is made righteous, they are saved, are they not?
    According to Paul, righteous is only part of being saved.

    Romans 10:9-10 makes that plain enough.

    So can you demonstrate where the dodging and snipping occurred?
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  4. #44
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    According to Paul, righteous is only part of being saved.

    Romans 10:9-10 makes that plain enough.
    That's not what it says. We have told you that above.

    Maybe you should define what you think Justification, Righteousness, and Salvation mean

    So can you demonstrate where the dodging and snipping occurred?
    In your post.

  5. #45
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That's not what it says. We have told you that above.

    Maybe you should define what you think Justification, Righteousness, and Salvation mean



    In your post.
    Bare assertion.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

    Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    Justified is not saved. NOW justified WILL BE saved. (or perhaps there is a difference between being saved and being saved from wrath?)

    1 Cor 15:1-2 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    Saved by the gospel ... provided that you believe.

    2 Thess 2:10 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    No love of truth = not saved

    Authorship by Paul disputed

    1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    Saved by heeding and continuing in (sound) doctrine.


    And of course, if writings other than Paul's are taken into account - where no amount of twisting will change what they said - the other factors involved in salvation are manifest.
    Last edited by tabibito; 05-21-2019 at 11:33 AM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  6. #46
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Regarding the nature of faith and whether faith is the sole condition for salvation, as interesting as these topics are, do not these issues take us a bit far afield from the subject of this thread?
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  7. #47
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Regarding the nature of faith and whether faith is the sole condition for salvation, as interesting as these topics are, do not these issues take us a bit far afield from the subject of this thread?
    I suppose they do at that.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  8. Amen The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  9. #48
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    So - to return to the topic ...

    I think that Jesus died that all might partake of or be given opportunity to be reconciled to God - but that atonement is limited to those who actually accept the offer.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  10. #49
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Bare assertion.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

    Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    Justified is not saved. NOW justified WILL BE saved. (or perhaps there is a difference between being saved and being saved from wrath?)

    1 Cor 15:1-2 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    Saved by the gospel ... provided that you believe.

    2 Thess 2:10 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    No love of truth = not saved

    Authorship by Paul disputed

    1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    Saved by heeding and continuing in (sound) doctrine.


    And of course, if writings other than Paul's are taken into account - where no amount of twisting will change what they said - the other factors involved in salvation are manifest.
    I am finding your terse comments hard to follow Tab.

    Justification is God's removing sin from a person and imputing Christ's righteousness upon them.
    And righteousness is being declared sinless and pure through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

    Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


    And those that are made righteous are saved. Only the sinners are condemned.

    So you are playing semantic games with various terms trying to separate them. They are all related. And are all tied to faith in Jesus Christ. No works. You can't earn salvation. And merely declaring your allegiance and faith in Christ is not a work. It is the outcome of being saved. Of believing.

  11. #50
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    So - to return to the topic ...

    I think that Jesus died that all might partake of or be given opportunity to be reconciled to God - but that atonement is limited to those who actually accept the offer.
    We agree there!

    and I would add to those who cannot grasp the concept or right v wrong because they are too young, or perhaps mentally disabled.

  12. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.

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