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Thread: It's The Ecomomy Stupid...

  1. #31
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The truth has finally been revealed... MSNBC's Chris Hayes says that business owners across the country deliberately sabotaged the economy while Obama was in office because they didn't want a Democrat president to succeed.

    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/...oming-economy/

    (On the other hand, this is essentially an admission that the Obama presidency was a failure.)

  2. #32
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    What is nonsense is that you seem to have a problem with people spending their own earned monies as they wish. Like stock buy backs.
    What is nonsense is you seem to want to ignore all of the claims that were made that this was NOT a gift to the rich, that it would help the lower and middle classes most and the rich would not see a benefit, that it would create jobs, job, jobs, and all of the other lies that Trump and the Republicans told to sell it to their base. The reality of what actually happened to the money was significantly different.

    As for "their money," there is no way you will ever convince me that one man's labor is worth billions while another man's labor is worth a few dollars. The fact that 40% of the wealth in the U.S. is concentrated in the hands of the few is obscene. It is theft of labor. So it is not "their money." It is stolen money, taken directly from the backs of the laborers who did the work to earn it. While I can accept a differential from the line workers to the top echelons of a company, and that differential is likely to be higher proportionate to the size of the company, it is a travesty that we have to watch parents work double jobs to put food on the table for their families, while others are walking away from even failing companies with multi-million dollar "parachutes."

    The rest of your post was the usual right-wing tripe - and I frankly cannot be bothered.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. Amen guacamole amen'd this post.
  4. #33
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    yes ... but not entirely false.

    They didnít want full employment, they didnít want wage growth and empowered workers and they certainly didnít want that happening under a Democratic president.

    I mean, years of the titans of industry whining about the skills mismatch, how they canít find good workers, and chin-stroking conferences about labor force participation, and columns about how it was workersí own fault, on and on and on, all just garbage.

    Come close. Hear some truth.

    This is how it happened, yíallÖ

    When Obama was president, when Barry the Democrat was president, when a BLACK! man was president, millions and millions and millions of businesses got together, using Skype or something, and colluded to keep the economy down.

    What Iím saying is thisÖ Obamaís failed economy had nothing to do with the burdens of Obamacare or all those regulations or him always running around threatening to raise taxes. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. It was a plot. A conspiracy. And after the Republican won, these very same business owners reconvened around a giant table, like the table SPECTRE uses, but bigger cuz there are millions of them, and said, Okay, now we hire!


    The text in red is true enough. Employer groups don't want full employment. Full employment makes it hard to keep wages down. However, it is a fine balancing game because if it goes too far, the economy tanks. When that happens, you lose the propaganda advantage of being able to demonise and marginalise the people who are unable to find employment. Too many unemployed people makes it difficult to deceive people with the "it's their own fault" spiel. But it doesn't take any organised conspiracy to produce the desired results.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  5. #34
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense, the Corporate tax cuts apply to all Corporations small and large, I know many small Corporations who benefited. Certainly the larger the Corporation, the more gain. But that only helps us be more competitive in world markets.
    It was either the New York Times or Washington Post which conceded, after several years of chanting Carpe's mantra of the tax cut being a "hand-out to the wealthiest," that 80% of Americans directly benefited by the tax cut in the form of lower taxes and pay raises.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  6. #35
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    It was either the New York Times or Washington Post which conceded, after several years of chanting Carpe's mantra of the tax cut being a "hand-out to the wealthiest," that 80% of Americans directly benefited by the tax cut in the form of lower taxes and pay raises.
    Again - fun with statistics. There is no incompatibility between "80% of Americans benefited" and "most of the money went disproportionately to the wealthiest."

    Simple example. I decide to hand out free money to people walking down a city street. I ask each person what their current salary is and give money out as follows:

    • If their salary is below 20K, I give them nothing.
    • If their salary is between 20K and 200K I give them one dollar.
    • If their salary is above 200K I give them $100


    During the course of the day, the distribution of my donations is:

    • Below 20K: 0$ (20 people)
    • Between 20K and 200K: $70 (70 people)
    • Above 200K: $1000 (10 people)


    I can now claim that 80% of the people I met "benefited" from my exercise. However the distribution is:

    • Below 20K: 20% of the people shared 0% of the "benefit"
    • Between 20K and 200K: 70% of the people shared 6.4% of the "benefit"
    • Above 200K: 10% of the people shared 93.4% of the benefit.


    See how that works?

    And the expected response is: people who pay more in taxes should expect more of a return. Except that is not what was promised, the tax return further exacerbated the gap between rich and poor, and the rich are having their excess/surplus taxed, while the poor and middle class are having their needs taxed. There is a significant difference.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. Amen guacamole amen'd this post.
  8. #36
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    What is nonsense is you seem to want to ignore all of the claims that were made that this was NOT a gift to the rich, that it would help the lower and middle classes most and the rich would not see a benefit, that it would create jobs, job, jobs, and all of the other lies that Trump and the Republicans told to sell it to their base. The reality of what actually happened to the money was significantly different.
    Get a grip Carp, it was a gift to Corporations big and small. And of course the larger the Corporation the more benefit they would see from the 20% corporate rate. And again, more corporate taxation is not conducive to business growth and and investment, it hinders it.


    As for "their money," there is no way you will ever convince me that one man's labor is worth billions while another man's labor is worth a few dollars. The fact that 40% of the wealth in the U.S. is concentrated in the hands of the few is obscene. It is theft of labor. So it is not "their money." It is stolen money, taken directly from the backs of the laborers who did the work to earn it. While I can accept a differential from the line workers to the top echelons of a company, and that differential is likely to be higher proportionate to the size of the company, it is a travesty that we have to watch parents work double jobs to put food on the table for their families, while others are walking away from even failing companies with multi-million dollar "parachutes."

    The rest of your post was the usual right-wing tripe - and I frankly cannot be bothered.
    Theft of labor? Stolen money? You really are a Marxist at heart.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  9. #37
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Again - fun with statistics. There is no incompatibility between "80% of Americans benefited" and "most of the money went disproportionately to the wealthiest."
    Carp in what way did the money go to the "wealthy." Was it that their personal income tax was drastically reduced? The tax rate for the highest earners went from 39.7% to 37%. My rate went from 25% to 22%. https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-f...cket-and-rate/

    The real difference that you are complaining about is with corporate tax rates, which fall to all size corporations, who are under federal regulations. Not individuals per se.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #38
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Get a grip Carp, it was a gift to Corporations big and small.
    Get a grip, Seer, it was a gift that went primarily into the pockets of the wealthy and exacerbated the gap between rich and poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And of course the larger the Corporation the more benefit they would see from the 20% corporate rate. And again, more corporate taxation is not conducive to business growth and and investment, it hinders it.
    By that argument - let's just not tax businesses at all.

    Taxation is necessary, Seer. Your argument here is meaningless. The current taxation of 15% hinders more than 10%. 35% hindered more than 20%. ANY tax hinders. The question is, what is an appropriate rate and how could the tax cut have been structured to encourage actual investment and jobs, instead of pouring most of it into the pockets of the richest members of our society. No attempt was made to frame this issue - so the rich got richer and the poor got a sop to keep them complacent. And apparently it worked on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Theft of labor? Stolen money? You really are a Marxist at heart.
    Your opinion is duly noted, but I note you have made no supporting argument. Tossing out labels is easy - and often masquerades as "saying something." It doesn't. I note you have made no argument to defend how one man can earn literally tens of thousands of dollars per hour of labor, and another has to go home with no benefits and $12 an hour after working a 40-hour week.

    Free market capitalism values one thing: money. Free market capitalists measure value by one metric: money. Success is measured by its acquisition. Failure measured by its loss.

    Ergo - free market capitalism is bad. It will sacrifice life to money. It will sacrifice freedom to money. It will sacrifice honesty to money. It will sacrifice compassion to money. That doesn't make capitalism itself wrong or bad. It means capitalism must be controlled and regulated to prevent abuses. And when two men can work full time, and one is going hungry while the other is trying to decide which yacht to buy as their "second yacht," something is badly wrong.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-07-2019 at 06:36 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #39
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp in what way did the money go to the "wealthy." Was it that their personal income tax was drastically reduced? The tax rate for the highest earners went from 39.7% to 37%. My rate went from 25% to 22%. https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-f...cket-and-rate/

    The real difference that you are complaining about is with corporate tax rates, which fall to all size corporations, who are under federal regulations. Not individuals per se.
    You need to learn about "effective tax rate." As with Sparko - you're going to the tax tables and comparing numbers, while ignoring all of the changes in deductions. You are also ignoring the relationship between the corporate tax rate and wealthy individuals.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  12. #40
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Get a grip, Seer, it was a gift that went primarily into the pockets of the wealthy and exacerbated the gap between rich and poor.



    By that argument - let's just not tax businesses at all.

    Taxation is necessary, Seer. Your argument here is meaningless. The current taxation of 15% hinders more than 10%. 35% hindered more than 20%. ANY tax hinders. The question is, what is an appropriate rate and how could the tax cut have been structured to encourage actual investment and jobs, instead of pouring most of it into the pockets of the richest members of our society. No attempt was made to frame this issue - so the rich got richer and the poor got a sop to keep them complacent. And apparently it worked on you.
    First Carp, your claim that most of the tax cuts went to the wealthy is false, it went to Corporations (big and small). And what Corporations did with that money varied. My company hire two part time workers, and one full time. And we all got a $500 bonus. Some as you mentioned did stock buy backs - which is good business sense for long term viability (as my link showed). Making it more attractive for business to operate in this country is a good thing. If you are really worried about the small guy you should be supporting the renegotiation of these horrible trade deals. When a US manufacturer can go over seas and pay 10% of the labor costs that they do here, the owners and stock holders get richer, and the common worker loses. Never mind automation and the influx of low skilled immigrants. All these things drive down wages and exasperate the difference you are so worried about. The positive side is that just about everyone's 401Ks have increased greatly.


    Your opinion is duly noted, but I note you have made no supporting argument. Tossing out labels is easy - and often masquerades as "saying something." It doesn't. I note you have made no argument to defend how one man can earn literally tens of thousands of dollars per hour of labor, and another has to go home with no benefits and $12 an hour after working a 40-hour week.

    Free market capitalism values one thing: money. Free market capitalists measure value by one metric: money. Success is measured by its acquisition. Failure measured by its loss.

    Ergo - free market capitalism is bad. It will sacrifice life to money. It will sacrifice freedom to money. It will sacrifice honesty to money. It will sacrifice compassion to money. That doesn't make capitalism itself wrong or bad. It means capitalism must be controlled and regulated to prevent abuses. And when two men can work full time, and one is going hungry while the other is trying to decide which yacht to buy as their "second yacht," something is badly wrong.
    Nonsense, name one system in history that has lifted more people out of poverty?



    Economic Freedom Enables Great Escape From Poverty

    DS-Index-of-Freedom-2018-Chart-1.jpg

    https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and...escape-poverty
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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