It's The Ecomomy Stupid...

[carpedm9587]

I wasn't paying very good intention when I typed.

I am SO grateful for those...

[Cow Poke]

I am SO grateful for those...

I've been under a tornado warning (not watch) so that's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it!

[carpedm9587]

I've been under a tornado warning (not watch) so that's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it!

Weiner...

[Cow Poke]

Weiner...

Jake was needing my attention because thunderstorms make him tremble. He's the weiner [sic] and I'm his support system.

[carpedm9587]

Jake was needing my attention because thunderstorms make him tremble. He's the weiner [sic] and I'm his support system.

I think you just told me you're an athletic supporter...

[Sparko]

OK - let's see just how honest you are. Remember what I said here (which started all of this):

Go through the thread, Sparko. I've cited a significant amount of data, and provided sources for some of it. I haven't sourced every single piece cited. I don't make up data - I find it and use it to guide my decision making process.

So...

• In my first post, multiple statistics on unemployment and labor participation rates (unlinked)
• In post 27, data on U.S. wealth distribution (unlinked)
• In post 29, data on U.S. exports (linked)
• In post 35, a mathematical example of how two claimed concepts are not mutually exclusive (unlinked)
• In post 43, a reference to the number of U.S> taxpayers (unlinked, though I did look that one up at the time)
• In post 44, reference to the percentage CEO wages increased (unlinked)
• In post 48, a reference to the distribution of stocks among economic classes (unlinked, and this is the one Seer pointed out I had missed, but it appears I got it right - 10% not the 5% he claimed I said)
• In post 51, cited statistics related to ETR (unlinked)
• In post 60, repeated the wealth disparity statistic (unlinked)
• In post 61, again cited the 84% statistic, but this time did so sloppily, associating it with capital gains in general instead of stocks specifically (unlinked)
• In post 63, cited the numbers for Walmart CEO/Employee salaries (unlinked, though I had just looked it up)
• In post 68, here's where that mistaken 84% by 5% statistic was quoted, which Seer caught. Also cited poverty statistics and the breakdown of Seer's "gain" as a result of the tax cut. (unlinked)
• In post 68, cited poverty statistics (again), population numbers, business owner/worker ratio statistics. (unlinked)

That's pretty much the list. As I noted - I provided significant data - and did not source all of it. Pretty much exactly what I said. Indeed - I find that I didn't source much of it at all. BUt the data was provided to support my arguments.

Now let's see if you recant calling me a liar - or simply press on with the false narrative. I'm betting the latter - and what I predicted to CP will be pretty much what will happen.

First of all, most of that is just you spouting facts without any sources. You did link a few, good for you.

But my problem is with your post to ME, where you continually tried to dismiss my points by referring to "the data" without actually citing the data. When I asked you to do so, you just said you already had in the thread.

So here again is your references to "the data" - please tell me which of your posts cites the actual data you are referring to. And I don't mean just you repeating unsourced facts as if you are the authority.

From
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632117

Nobody is promised success, just opportunity. Everyone has the same opportunity to try and succeed or fail.

And here is where you jump the rails. Everyone is NOT offered the same opportunity. Where you start impacts where you are likely to end up. This assumption on your part is part of the mantra you have been fed by your masters, and you have internalized it like a good boy - spitting it out regularly without actually thinking it through, even when the data shows you are wrong.

Show me the data that you posted earlier in the thread that shows I am wrong.

The data tells us social consciousness reduces proportionate to wealth.

Show me where you posted earlier this data that tells us social consciousness reduced proportionate to wealth

I know what the data tells me about wealth distribution, opportunity, and social mobility. I know what the tax code tells me about who it is designed to most benefit, and I reject the indoctrination of the rich and the Republican party that has you mindlessly defending their "rights" in the face of overwhelming evidence of a system skewed to predominantly benefit the wealthy.

Show me the data you posted earlier that tells us about wealth distribution, opportunity and social mobility. You seem to have posted as you say an "unlinked" assertion in a post but what good is that? That doesn't tell us the actual data, where it came from or what it says, it just shows you making another unsourced assertion just like you did above. unlinked (and uncited) information is nothing but you making some assertion.

I can make uncited and unlinked assertions all day long. Doesn't help you out does it?

[Sparko]

Sparko - your link goes to an empty list...

apparently the searches are not permanently linked.

I went to the civics 101 forum page, then looking at the line of the thread listing, to the right you will see "Replies:xxx" the number is hyperlinked. If you click it it shows everyone who posted and how many posts they made. If you click on how many posts they made, it comes back with a search result of all of their posts. It's a neat little trick if you ever need to find all of the posts from a particular user in a thread.

[carpedm9587]

First of all, most of that is just you spouting facts without any sources. You did link a few, good for you.

But my problem is with your post to ME, where you continually tried to dismiss my points by referring to "the data" without actually citing the data. When I asked you to do so, you just said you already had in the thread.

So here again is your references to "the data" - please tell me which of your posts cites the actual data you are referring to. And I don't mean just you repeating unsourced facts as if you are the authority.

You're moving the goal posts, Sparko. This is more or less what I expected from you, to be honest. I have cited data throughout my arguments with Seer, and with you. I have not (and explicitly said I had not) sourced that data. I don't always do so - this is a forum, not a thesis (which I have also said). Usually, I source data if I look it up at the time I use it. If I have previously looked it up, I don't go hunting for the links again. If someone wants to question that data, they are free to do so. Just find data that conflicts - no problem. But I'm not going to hunt for the same link over and over and over again each time I use a statistic just because someone is doubtful that I am quoting actual data.

From
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632117

Show me the data that you posted earlier in the thread that shows I am wrong.

Part of the data is in what I have been posting from the outset in this thread: U.S. poverty levels, wealth inequalities, etc. Part is not explicitly listed here, such as statistics on links between crime/education/poverty and causal relationships between them. The statement "everyone has the same opportunity" cannot even get out of the starting gate of truth. I can show it wrong by pointing to any inner-city child and Donald Trump. DO you seriously believe that an inner city child in a poor school with a single parent struggling to put food on the table has "the same opportunities" that Donald Trump had/has? If you do - then there is something badly wrong with your grasp of reality.

Show me where you posted earlier this data that tells us social consciousness reduced proportionate to wealth

I have not quoted data to support this specific sentence in this thread (though I have done so in other threads). You can find several studies liked here. Frankly, a quick google search will provide you with several studies. And it's not just giving that trends downward, it's ethics, communalism, and a wide variety of social indicators.

Show me the data you posted earlier that tells us about wealth distribution, opportunity and social mobility. You seem to have posted as you say an "unlinked" assertion in a post but what good is that? That doesn't tell us the actual data, where it came from or what it says, it just shows you making another unsourced assertion just like you did above. unlinked (and uncited) information is nothing but you making some assertion.

I cited the data, Sparko. I was clear that I didn't source it all - nor will I do so every single time I cite a particular statistic. If that's what it takes for you to believe the numbers I post, then you'll have to go with your "doubt." I'm not going to write a thesis because you want me to.

I can make uncited and unlinked assertions all day long. Doesn't help you out does it?

You appear to use the term "cite" synonymously with "source." They are not the same. I cite MLK when I post,

"It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps."

I source that quote when I post: https://medium.com/@joshdance/source...e-4b71105dee35

And I note that you have yet to retract or apologize for your "liar." Don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting it. I was more or less predicting you'd double down, regardless of what I might provide for information. You're nothing if not consistent.

I will admit to some amount of disappointment. Frankly, I didn't think you would take your animosity for me to the extremes you've been taking it for some weeks now. Oh well...

[carpedm9587]

apparently the searches are not permanently linked.

I went to the civics 101 forum page, then looking at the line of the thread listing, to the right you will see "Replies:xxx" the number is hyperlinked. If you click it it shows everyone who posted and how many posts they made. If you click on how many posts they made, it comes back with a search result of all of their posts. It's a neat little trick if you ever need to find all of the posts from a particular user in a thread.

Thanks for the tip.

[Sparko]

You're moving the goal posts, Sparko. This is more or less what I expected from you, to be honest. I have cited data throughout my arguments with Seer, and with you. I have not (and explicitly said I had not) sourced that data. I don't always do so - this is a forum, not a thesis (which I have also said). Usually, I source data if I look it up at the time I use it. If I have previously looked it up, I don't go hunting for the links again. If someone wants to question that data, they are free to do so. Just find data that conflicts - no problem. But I'm not going to hunt for the same link over and over and over again each time I use a statistic just because someone is doubtful that I am quoting actual data.

I have not moved any goal posts. This is just another lie from you. I have always been asking for you to show me the actual data from your post to me. Where you kept referring to "the data" and never supplied it.

Here is the entire thread leading up to this:

=========

SPARKO
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632062

And here is where you jump the rails. Everyone is NOT offered the same opportunity. Where you start impacts where you are likely to end up. This assumption on your part is part of the mantra you have been fed by your masters, and you have internalized it like a good boy - spitting it out regularly without actually thinking it through, even when the data shows you are wrong.

We do all have the same opportunity. We don't all have the same abilities. And you keep mentioning this nebulous "data" that you never actually show. convenient.

And there we have it...the mantra of the rich religiously put forward by the indoctrinated. This is the land of opportunity - so anyone who is not rich (unless they are disabled or mentally ill) is poor by choice. If you didn't pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you are lazy or you chose to be poor.

I didn't say that at all. try reading what I wrote.

The data tells us social consciousness reduces proportionate to wealth. The higher up the economic ladder you are, the less likely you are to be socially conscious. As a percentage, the poor and middle class give more to charity than the rich. It even appears in your bible: the widow's pence. It has always been thus. The poor and middle class tend give out of their COL wages, like the widow. The rich give out of their excess - and an excess that is overwhelmingly (but not absolutely) earned on the backs of others. That does not mean socially conscious rich people don't exist. It means they are comparatively rare - and MOSTLY the rich work to continually skew the system in their favor, and indoctrinate people like you to defend them doing so.

Ah, the "data" again. right.

You seem to want to do what you always do, and point to the comparative handful of those who practice good business ethics to make the claim, "see, businesses are good!" You'r elike the man looking at a diseased apple, finding a small spot that is not rotten and screaming - "see - the apple is good!"

And you seem to claim all business people are evil incarnate trying to take advantage of their workers. Except YOU of course, Saint Carp.

The rest of this is more of the same mindless tripe you've been taught to repeat like a mantra - or sideswipes at my business ethics, so there really is no point in wasting further time responding.

Says Mr. "Data"

I know how I run my business. I know what the data tells me about wealth distribution, opportunity, and social mobility. I know what the tax code tells me about who it is designed to most benefit, and I reject the indoctrination of the rich and the Republican party that has you mindlessly defending their "rights" in the face of overwhelming evidence of a system skewed to predominantly benefit the wealthy.

When/if the rest of us are successful in shifting things - you and Seer will likely benefit. If your indoctrination holds - you'll complain about it the entire time, pining for a return to the do,inance of your masters.

the Data again.

CARP
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632066

We do all have the same opportunity. We don't all have the same abilities. And you keep mentioning this nebulous "data" that you never actually show. convenient.

I didn't say that at all. try reading what I wrote.

Ah, the "data" again. right.

And you seem to claim all business people are evil incarnate trying to take advantage of their workers. Except YOU of course, Saint Carp.

Says Mr. "Data"

the Data again.

The only thing here are points I have already responded to, more mocking in the absence of actual argumentation, and more strawmen (i.e., things I didn't say). As with Rogue - if you have some actual content, I'll respond. But if all you want to do is ignore data and build strawmen you can summarily take down, I'm going to leave you to your self-stimulation.

SPARKO
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632067

The only thing here are points I have already responded to, more mocking in the absence of actual argumentation, and more strawmen (i.e., things I didn't say). As with Rogue - if you have some actual content, I'll respond. But if all you want to do is ignore data and build strawmen you can summarily take down, I'm going to leave you to your self-stimulation.

Where's the data carp? Where's the beef?

CARP
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632071

Where's the data carp? Where's the beef?

Go through the thread, Sparko. I've cited a significant amount of data, and provided sources for some of it. I haven't sourced every single piece cited. I don't make up data - I find it and use it to guide my decision making process. If you don't believe that...no real skin off my nose

Meanwhile, I haven't seen you do anything except mock, misrepresent the positions I've expressed, and erect strawmen. So the discussion is largely a waste of time. When you have actual content, I'll respond further. As long as you are mindlessly mouthing the mantras of the Republicans/wealthy and erecting strawmen - I'll leave you to it.

SPARKO
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632073

Go through the thread, Sparko. I've cited a significant amount of data, and provided sources for some of it. I haven't sourced every single piece cited. I don't make up data - I find it and use it to guide my decision making process. If you don't believe that...no real skin off my nose

Meanwhile, I haven't seen you do anything except mock, misrepresent the positions I've expressed, and erect strawmen. So the discussion is largely a waste of time. When you have actual content, I'll respond further. As long as you are mindlessly mouthing the mantras of the Republicans/wealthy and erecting strawmen - I'll leave you to it.

Ah the old "I already showed you, go find it yourself" routine. right.

Have you been taking lessons from JimL?

Part of the data is in what I have been posting from the outset in this thread: U.S. poverty levels, wealth inequalities, etc. Part is not explicitly listed here, such as statistics on links between crime/education/poverty and causal relationships between them. The statement "everyone has the same opportunity" cannot even get out of the starting gate of truth. I can show it wrong by pointing to any inner-city child and Donald Trump. DO you seriously believe that an inner city child in a poor school with a single parent struggling to put food on the table has "the same opportunities" that Donald Trump had/has? If you do - then there is something badly wrong with your grasp of reality.

Again, I am asking you to actually post the data with a source which you claimed you did. Yet here you are just claiming you did again and not supplying the data.

I have not quoted data to support this specific sentence in this thread (though I have done so in other threads). You can find several studies liked here. Frankly, a quick google search will provide you with several studies. And it's not just giving that trends downward, it's ethics, communalism, and a wide variety of social indicators.



I cited the data, Sparko. I was clear that I didn't source it all - nor will I do so every single time I cite a particular statistic. If that's what it takes for you to believe the numbers I post, then you'll have to go with your "doubt." I'm not going to write a thesis because you want me to.

Where's the actual data, the actual information and the source of it? I can make claims about data or make up data too. Doesn't make what I say the data.

You appear to use the term "cite" synonymously with "source." They are not the same. I cite MLK when I post,

"It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps."

I source that quote when I post: https://medium.com/@joshdance/source...e-4b71105dee35

And I note that you have yet to retract or apologize for your "liar." Don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting it. I was more or less predicting you'd double down, regardless of what I might provide for information. You're nothing if not consistent.

I will admit to some amount of disappointment. Frankly, I didn't think you would take your animosity for me to the extremes you've been taking it for some weeks now. Oh well...

When you quote data, it is good if you actually list a citation to that data (e.g. "Report of finding of blah blah," 1990 NSA) and even better if you can give an online link to the data you are quoting. Merely saying "Walmart executives make 10 times what the average walmart employee makes" is not actually citing data. It is an assertion on your part. You need to show some source that confirms your assertion.


The only one moving goal posts here is you, trying to move them from you lying about providing the data you referenced in your posts to me previously, to somehow you providing any data about other stuff in this thread. I don't care if you provided some generic data on other topics in this thread - I care about you referencing "the data" over and over in your response to me and when I asked you FOR that data, you told me to go look through the thread because you provided it previously. That was a lie. Just admit it.

[carpedm9587]

I have not moved any goal posts. This is just another lie from you. I have always been asking for you to show me the actual data from your post to me. Where you kept referring to "the data" and never supplied it.

Here is the entire thread leading up to this:

=========

SPARKO
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632062



We do all have the same opportunity. We don't all have the same abilities. And you keep mentioning this nebulous "data" that you never actually show. convenient.


I didn't say that at all. try reading what I wrote.


Ah, the "data" again. right.

And you seem to claim all business people are evil incarnate trying to take advantage of their workers. Except YOU of course, Saint Carp.




Says Mr. "Data"




the Data again.

CARP
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632066



The only thing here are points I have already responded to, more mocking in the absence of actual argumentation, and more strawmen (i.e., things I didn't say). As with Rogue - if you have some actual content, I'll respond. But if all you want to do is ignore data and build strawmen you can summarily take down, I'm going to leave you to your self-stimulation.

SPARKO
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632067



Where's the data carp? Where's the beef?

CARP
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632071



Go through the thread, Sparko. I've cited a significant amount of data, and provided sources for some of it. I haven't sourced every single piece cited. I don't make up data - I find it and use it to guide my decision making process. If you don't believe that...no real skin off my nose

Meanwhile, I haven't seen you do anything except mock, misrepresent the positions I've expressed, and erect strawmen. So the discussion is largely a waste of time. When you have actual content, I'll respond further. As long as you are mindlessly mouthing the mantras of the Republicans/wealthy and erecting strawmen - I'll leave you to it.

SPARKO
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post632073


Ah the old "I already showed you, go find it yourself" routine. right.

Have you been taking lessons from JimL?

Again, I am asking you to actually post the data with a source which you claimed you did. Yet here you are just claiming you did again and not supplying the data.





Where's the actual data, the actual information and the source of it? I can make claims about data or make up data too. Doesn't make what I say the data.





When you quote data, it is good if you actually list a citation to that data (e.g. "Report of finding of blah blah," 1990 NSA) and even better if you can give an online link to the data you are quoting. Merely saying "Walmart executives make 10 times what the average walmart employee makes" is not actually citing data. It is an assertion on your part. You need to show some source that confirms your assertion.


The only one moving goal posts here is you, trying to move them from you lying about providing the data you referenced in your posts to me previously, to somehow you providing any data about other stuff in this thread. I don't care if you provided some generic data on other topics in this thread - I care about you referencing "the data" over and over in your response to me and when I asked you FOR that data, you told me to go look through the thread because you provided it previously. That was a lie. Just admit it.

At this point, Sparko - I don't see that any further exchange is useful. You are free to see me in whatever light you wish, and make whatever false statements about me you wish. I'll leave you to it.

[Sparko]

At this point, Sparko - I don't see that any further exchange is useful. You are free to see me in whatever light you wish, and make whatever false statements about me you wish. I'll leave you to it.

You are accusing ME of making false statements? Where's YOUR substantiation? I supported everything I said.