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400+ prosecutors sign a letter noting POTUS absent DOJ policy not to indict POTUS

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Just so you are aware, Jim, we're not pretending. We're so convinced that you're being unreasonable that we no longer bother to attempt rational conversation with you.
    That assessment is betrayed by the actual content of the replies in the thread. Those that in one form or another tried to assess the content of the OP, I replied to their points with what I see as their failing, where they go wrong. Much of the initial content just tries to assert this is meaningless because the people running the show disagree with them. I disagree, in that the show still has other scenes and acts, and the people in control of those scenes and acts are congress.

    No one has tried to address why these prosecutors see obstruction and Barr did not. Or why these prosecutors would have indicted and why Mueller did not recommend indictment. And of course, understanding that difference is critical to understanding whether or not we are witnessing a travesty of justice or a victory of justice.


    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      But the situation is not a court of law unless impeachment proceedings begin. Mueller left open, even prodded further action by congress that he is incapable of initiaiting.


      But, in fact, they are not the ones that make the decisions regarding congressional actions such as impeachment. So it is not a moot point unless Congress is satisfied it is a moot point.

      Jim
      The fact that Mueller was not confident enough in the evidence to plainly state that the President broke the law makes impeachment less likely. As I've said before, if Mueller's report was really that damning then House Democrats would have started impeachment proceedings already using nothing but Mueller's findings.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        The fact that Mueller was not confident enough in the evidence to plainly state that the President broke the law makes impeachment less likely. As I've said before, if Mueller's report was really that damning then House Democrats would have started impeachment proceedings already using nothing but Mueller's findings.
        Ill concede you are probably right. It is a mixed message, and to move forward on impeachment the message that Trump has acted in a way that rises to that kevel would need to be much stronger.

        I think one of the messages of this letter is that there are a non-trivial number of federal prosecutors that do not understand how mueller arrived at the final assassment he did

        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-07-2019, 08:17 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Ill concede you are probably right. It is a mixed message, and to move forward on impeachment the message that Trump has acted in a way that rises to that kevel would need to ge much stronger.
          Hey, we agree on something!

          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          I think one of the messages of this letter is that there arexa non-trivial number of federal prosecutors that do not understand how mueller arrived at the final assassment he did
          Eh, I've never been particularly impressed with open letters. You can find a non-trivial number of people to sign on to support pretty much any agenda.

          Thing is, they're not necessarily wrong, at least not in a very a narrow sense. Yes, it probably would be possible to get an indictment even as weak and inconclusive as Mueller's evidence is; as the saying goes, you can indict a ham sandwich. However, the probability of such an indictment surviving any sort of legal scrutiny is slim to none.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Right, and if a prosecutor were to stand before a judge and say, "Your honor, we do not have sufficient evidence to charge the accused, but we can't exonerate him, either," you know what the judge will say? "Not guilty."
            Well no, because over 650 former prosecutors say Trump would be indicted on the basis of Mueller's evidence if he weren't president.

            Special counsel Robert Mueller laid out extensive evidence of possible obstruction by Trump in volume 2 of his report, though he ultimately opted not to make a "traditional prosecutorial judgment" in part because of the OLC opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted. The opinion of over 650 former federal prosecutors have signed onto a statement asserting that if the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) did not prohibit a sitting president from being indicted, President Trump would be charged with obstruction of justice. In not doing so we have the travesty of a president being above the law.

            https://www.axios.com/trump-obstruct...3224f55e2.html
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
              And how does the wrath of God become manifest?
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                i'm not a lawyer, but i did stay at a holiday inn express...


                Jim
                fify n/c
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Well no, because over 650 former prosecutors say Trump would be indicted on the basis of Mueller's evidence if he weren't president.

                  Special counsel Robert Mueller laid out extensive evidence of possible obstruction by Trump in volume 2 of his report, though he ultimately opted not to make a "traditional prosecutorial judgment" in part because of the OLC opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted. The opinion of over 650 former federal prosecutors have signed onto a statement asserting that if the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) did not prohibit a sitting president from being indicted, President Trump would be charged with obstruction of justice. In not doing so we have the travesty of a president being above the law.

                  https://www.axios.com/trump-obstruct...3224f55e2.html
                  Media tourism FTW!!!!
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    But that isn't what was said.

                    (1) The 400+ were not simply other people, they are current or former federal prosecutors. That makes your summary significantly different from that actual content of my OP. Why does it make it different? Because they are immensely qualified to assess the evidence and determine if it actually constitutes obstruction, unlike most 'other people'

                    (2) Their opinion is not based on 'evidence not seen', but rather that evidence presented in the Mueller report itself - the same report Barr was using on which to base his own assessment. So there is a sound basis for their conclusion. And their conclusion is contrary to that of Barr who was hand selected by the president and who has shown himself anything but impartial in these matters.

                    (3) Meuller made a statement that is ambivalent in its complete form as regards obstruction. That is, on the one hand he says the evidence doesn't prove there was a crime, yet OTOH it doesn't clear him either.


                    Your summary is both incomplete and inaccurate. Based on the actual point of the OP as corrected in points 1,2 and 3, there is nothing irrational about recognizing the fact that Mueller's summary is quite clearly influenced by the policy not to indict, and that the report's summary's is at best inconsistent with the evidence presented in the report, as assessed by over 400 federal prosecutors. So much so they believed a they should participate in a signed letter to that effect. IOW, they believed this was an important enough issue that they should lend their own authority and expertise to the opinion that the report DOES show a clear pattern of obstruction on Trump's part.



                    And this is also a distortion. Trump has committed numerous truly immoral acts. I have only addressed actions and situations that are clearly exactly that. But I have always emphasized that it is the support of Trump IN THOSE IMMORAL ACTS that I have called people to task over.



                    Well, if you will look back at what this thread is, you will see that the topic is actually the opinion of these federal prosecutors concerning the evidence. So if you could find a way to stick to the OP rather than wondering off into why you don't like me personally, a reasoned discussion would be possible.

                    MM has been reasoning with me, and I have not done anything in response to his points other than address them logically as I see them. The same has been true of every other person posting up to the point the content became personal attacks directed at me.


                    Jim
                    Jim your post above just confirms everything I said in my post. I think I will follow CP in bowing out.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      fify n/c
                      All a post like that does is highlight a lack of integrity and incapacity to reason on your part.

                      Jim
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Jim your post above just confirms everything I said in my post. I think I will follow CP in bowing out.
                        Feel free to do so. But as far as I can tell you are acting out of spite, not any rational or justifiable reason.

                        Jim
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-08-2019, 08:05 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Feel free to do so. But as far as I can tell you are acting out of spite, not any rational or justifiable reason.

                          Jim
                          No I have just realized that any efforts on my part are a waste of my time. You will not be convinced by any arguments, your mind is set. That is your prerogative and this is your thread so I will just either lurk or unsubscribe.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            All a post like that does is highlight a lack of integrity and incapacity to reason on your part.

                            Jim
                            Nah, it shows that you have lost all value to me as a discussion partner. You have no intention of being rational, so I have resigned myself to mocking you, as you so rightly deserve.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              Feel free to do so. But as far as I can tell you are acting out of spite, not any rational or justifiable reason.

                              Jim
                              You wouldn't know rational if it fell from the sky and bludgeoned you on the head with something...
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                You wouldn't know rational if it fell from the sky and bludgeoned you on the head with something...
                                I think you are proving my point.

                                But here is a test. If you are being rational and I am not, then it should be possible for at least one of you, using precise and rational language, to point out what i have said on this topic so far in this thread is irrational and why it is irrational.

                                So far there has only been accusation, drama, and various forms of name calling, which does not bode well for your accusations having any real merit.

                                Jim
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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