The strange greatness of Donald Trump

[Cow Poke]

Thanks Cow Poke, But that post should, but won't make Jim think "why am I opposing this guy?" I don't know Carpe's views on abortion but most atheists I know support it.

Ah, yeah... ok, I think both parties know by now.

[Cow Poke]

Carp has said he is against abortion...

Yeah, that's what he says

[oxmixmudd]

Thanks Cow Poke, But that post should, but won't make Jim think "why am I opposing this guy?" I don't know Carpe's views on abortion but most atheists I know support it.

No apologies for assuming the post was from me? And are you absolutely sure I won't put what you listed in the side of 'good things' associated with Trump? I have in other threads acknowledged Trump is not all bad. For me the bad overshadows the good - but there is good there too and I am trying to keep track of it.

Jim

[carpedm9587]

Hi Jim, I admit that abortion has become less popular among younger women and that is because imaging technologies now show a well formed human at 8 weeks with a beating heart. Such views make people realize that a fetus is not a lump of tissue. So the decline you mention is welcome and due to that. (my wife worked in a pregnancy counselling center and I learned loads from her)

I would suggest that you don't know what Trump has down wrt abortion because you don't want to know. The information is easily available but because of your hatred of Trump you can't see anything good that he has done.

But you asked what has Trump done:

1, April 13, 2017 signed a congressional bill reversing Obama's regulation prohibiting states from discriminating against abortion clinics. States were refusing to fund planned parenthood and Obama tried to stop that with a law, and Trump signed the repeal of that law---Are you against this action of Trump?

2. Jan 23, 2017 Trump re-instated the Mexico City Policy which had the effect of defunding Planned Parenthood and other foreign organizations which promote abortions overseas.---are you against this action of Trumps?

3. April 4, 2017 halted US funding of UN population fund which partially funds China's one-child policy which has resulting in millions of baby girls being aborted so they can have sons. ---are you against this Trump policy?

4. he has appointed more pro-life advocates to the Department of Health and Human services. He appointed Dr. Charmaine Yoest, a strong pro-life advocate and the former president of Americans United for Life, to the position of assistant secretary of public affairs for the Department of Health and Human Services, replacing a strong Planned Parenthood supporter.==are you against this Trump policy?

5. May 15, 2017 Trump broadened the scope of the Mexico City Policy to restrict funding to any international health organization performing abortions.--are you against this Trump policy?

6. Octo 1, 2017 Down syndrome people are preferentially aborted. Trump became the first president since Clinton to recognize Down Syndrome Awareness month. My wife had a Down's uncle who lived a wonderful, loved life until age 66. Even Downs people have a right to life--are you against this trump policy?

7. Nov 2017 Proclaimed National Adoption month saying that "no child in America born or unborn--is unwanted or unloved." ---are you suggesting that Trump should have said all children in America born or unborn are unwanted and unloved?

8 Jan 19,2018 HHS rescinded more regulations that made it hard for states to defund planned parenthood. And protected employees of hospitals from being forced to perform abortions against their consciences.---are you against this Trump policy?

9. Feb 23 2018 changed Title X family planning grants to prohibit grants from being used for abortions--are you against this Trump policy?

10. April 20,2018 Ended Obama's policy of listing abortion as a 'human right' in State Department's human rights report--are you against this Trump policy?

11. Nov 7 2018 finalized 2 rules allowing employeres with religious objections to opt out of Obamacare's contraceptive mandate.==Do you think Catholic employers should be forced to pay for contraception against their religious belief?

12. Dec 10, 2018 NIH offered 20 million in grants to look for alternatives to fetal tissue research in medicine.--are you against this policy, Jim or do you think we need to kill babies to advance science?

I could go on but this is enough. Jim I didn't know you were pro abortion cause by opposing Trump you automatically help the other side.

First, I'm Carpe (or Michel), not Jim.

As to your points:

1) I do not believe the legal system will solve the abortion problem, so generally I am for eliminating laws related to making abortion legal or illegal.

2) I am not for defunding Planned Parenthood because of the range of services they provide - but I have no problem with the government keeping out of funding a procedure that is the basis for so much discord.

3) I think China was facing a massive population issue that needed to be addressed somehow, and I think a country has the right to put such controls in place. I object to China's solution solely on the basis that the people of China had no say in its implementation. In a democratic republic facing the same issues, I would have no problem with policies that encourage a reduction in reproduction. As far as I know, forced abortions were not part of the policy, though they were a natural consequence. The reported reason for pulling from this funding was that the UNFPA was participating in "coercive abortion or involuntary sterilization." As with so many things Trump says, this statement is false. I find no evidence of such support. As with Planned Parenthood, I do not support defunding agencies that do a wealth of good.

4) I think the Department of Health and Services should have representation from both sides of the discussion/debate - so there is a possibility of focusing on systemic solutions that will respect both the rights of a woman and the rights of the child.

5) I have no problem with withholding government funding from direct support for abortions. It is a highly divisive procedure.

6) Recognizing Down's Syndrome Awareness is not an issue - but (as you note) this is not a uniquely Trump move.

7) Umm.. that's a ridiculous question, so I have no answer.

8) I have no problem with defunding abortions. I do not support defunding healthcare agencies. I don't think a business is required to tolerate people refusing to do the work of that business and the government reaching into a business and saying, "you must let people opt out of things they don't want to do" is inappropriate interference in business. The person has an option for controlling this: work for another business.

9) See previous answers.

10) No - I do not object to this. I believe both the right to life and the right to freedom of medical choice should be reflected.

11) Again, I think the government should not be telling a business what they can and cannot include in their healthcare coverage, or that they have to provide healthcare coverage. Employees can make that choice when they choose where to apply for work. A single-payer healthcare system will resolve this problem.

12) I have no problem with finding alternatives to fetal tissue research, and I have no problem with any form of human tissue research so long as the human who previously owned the tissue was not killed specifically to obtain the tissue.

But your statement was that Trump has done more than any other Republican (and presumably Democrat) president. Most of these things (or things like them) have been done by previous presidents - to the degree they could with the Congress they were dealt. So I don't see that Trump has done any more/less, except possibly that he is only the second Republican president since the 1950s to have both chambers of Congress of his same party.

I strongly disagree that Trump is a racist. Racists don't give presidential freedom medals to black golfers while giving a speech praising the man. As to the black unemployment, the chart at the link should be plotted from 1995 through 2019 rather than just 2009 to 2019 which is what you looked at. If you do that, you will see that Black unemployement went sky high in the last recession and was falling from that extremely high level. Indeed, this level was the 2nd highest black unemployment level in history and it occurred on Obama's watch, starting to drop ONLY in Obama's 2nd term and had not reached Bush levels by 2016. Trump's policies have brought that unemployement to a record low for Blacks. That is a GOOD thing.

So, Jim, do you think Blacks should have fewer jobs? Why are you not happy that this has happened for them?

Trump's history of racism is, as I noted, long and well documented. But he's not a complete idiot. He knows overt racism is a death knell for him. So of course there is the occasional medal and nod given to other races. It doesn't undo his long history with this issue, his language, and his choices. As for unemployment, there is absolutely no correlation between low black unemployment and Trump's racism - so I have no clue why you even mention it.

Frankly, Jim if you had but expended that Bureau of Labor Statistic Chart you would have had a better understanding so maybe you just don't really want to know good things about Trump and so don't put the effort into finding good things about his admin. When we hate someone or some party we all are loathe to see any good in them at all. It is a human trait.

I dislike (yeah, maybe hate) Trump for the caliber of man he is, the manner in which he represents our country, his relentless lies, his bullying tactics, his childish name calling, the long list in inappropriate (and possibly illegal) actions on his part before and since taking office. He is the worst president in my lifetime (including Nixon) and may well be the worst president in our history (thought I cannot say I know them all - and I know some of them were doozies - so maybe not). I will dance for joy when he is shown the door - and have high hopes this will be in January of 2021. If it is not, I probably won't be here for January of 2025. I'll dance from a distance.

[Cow Poke]

Ah, yeah... ok, I think both parties know by now.

Or not!

First, I'm Carpe (or Michel), not Jim.

[carpedm9587]

Right it was going down in the last 7 quarters, and that was a 1.4 average. That is a full point drop.

First, the average was 1.57, not 1.4. Second, I'm happy to trade a slight drop for stability.

Right and the first quarter of 2019 was 3.2, which is good considering the trade wars. Which hopefully will end soon.

We shall see. However, as I have noted - money is not my primary metric. I will happily trade other priorities for a couple points on the GDP growth metric.

Well I'm glad you agree that more taxation and regulation slow growth.

Of course I do. Only a fool denies what is obvious. And nice way to dodge all of the rest I said.

Some of us care about more than money - so a reasonable GDP growth and steady progress is fine. And I think you will find that we will be heard in 2020.

[oxmixmudd]

Or not!

My guess is it's just the time delay composing the message. I'm sure He knows now.

Jim

[Cow Poke]

Some of us care about more than money...

Yeah!! Like Hillary not being POTUS and SCOTUS not being Hillary's!!!! We will survive Trump!

[Cow Poke]

My guess is it's just the time delay composing the message. I'm sure He knows now.

Jim

He and I are friendly adversaries - he knows I'm poking him.

[seer]

Some of us care about more than money - so a reasonable GDP growth and steady progress is fine. And I think you will find that we will be heard in 2020.

With who, Biden? Bernie? In any case if we keep the Senate they won't get any of their Commie policies through...

[Sparko]

If Trump's history of racism is long and documented, then please document it here. I know it has been claimed that he is racist, and he has been accused of being racist, mostly for some comments that people decided to take that way, but I have not seen any evidence that Trump is racist.

[carpedm9587]

With who, Biden? Bernie? In any case if we keep the Senate they won't get any of their Commie policies through...

Possibly Biden. That seems the most likely right now. But it is way early in the cycle, so who knows what will happen. Personally, I wouldn't mind a Biden in the mix for four years. My primary concern is that he (like Trump) has a bit of a problem with having a reasonable governor on his mouth. If it is him and Trump in the GA, then I think we can expect a world of mudslinging.

As for the Senate - I think the most likely turn of affairs is Democrats take the executive and keep the House, while Reps keep the Senate. The Senate will always be a tough slog for Dems because there are more "red" states than blue ones, which means Dems have to take seats in Red states. In this polarized time, that is increasingly difficult. Bringing Puerto Rico and D.C. into statehood would balance that a bit, but that too seems unlikely. It MIGHT happen if Dems take a trifecta, but I am not usually a fan of one-party control of all three (House, Senate, Executive). If I could call it, I'd rather have Dems take the Executive and Senate and lose the House. But we'll see.

And what is it with you and "Commie" and "Marxist" and "Socialist?" Do you really think most of us are dismayed by those terms? Or is it just kind of an internal right-wing rallying cry? Shades of McCarthyism.

[carpedm9587]

If Trump's history of racism is long and documented, then please document it here. I know it has been claimed that he is racist, and he has been accused of being racist, mostly for some comments that people decided to take that way, but I have not seen any evidence that Trump is racist.

Then I have to assume that you have not been looking. Fortune had a decent article during the campaign. You can find it here. There are others that a little bit of searching will easily locate. Beyond this, I'm really not going to waste my time documenting something you're just going to hand-wave away and then claim I'm "lying." I might was well just let you skip to "you're a liar" and save myself the work. More efficient!

[seer]

And what is it with you and "Commie" and "Marxist" and "Socialist?" Do you really think most of us are dismayed by those terms? Or is it just kind of an internal right-wing rallying cry? Shades of McCarthyism.

Well you said that you are part Marxist and Socialist, so I assume you will vote for those who share your views, like comrade Bernie...

[Cow Poke]

Then I have to assume that you have not been looking. Fortune had a decent article during the campaign. You can find it here. There are others that a little bit of searching will easily locate. Beyond this, I'm really not going to waste my time documenting something you're just going to hand-wave away and then claim I'm "lying." I might was well just let you skip to "you're a liar" and save myself the work. More efficient!

I've seen some, and some of it reflects the culture at the time, shameful as it was, and some of it is like him calling "ALL immigrants" (he didn't) rapists and gang members and monsters.... Included in several lists of "racist" claims I've found, there are a number of them where, for example, Trump refers to Muslims. Muslims are not a race.

What hurts this "Trump is a racist" claim is that the accusers often overshoot the runway by adding in any possible bad interpretation or representation of what he said, and pile that into what he actually did do or say.