Questionable Prophesies by Joseph Smith

[Trout]

* Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)
No longer teach the gathering and temple never built.

* Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)
Mormons driven out.

* Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103)
Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise.

* Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)
England and other nations did not join in.

* United Order (D&C 104)
V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized.

* Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)
No riches found, debts not paid

* Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)
He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?

* New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)
LDS driven out, never built the temple.

* Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)
Temple and house not completed

* Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)
Christ did not return.

[Amazing Rando]

Hey Trout, I don't think you'll have anyone dispute these! We haven't had any actual Mormons on these boards as far back as I can remember!

[Xavier]

John Powell was a mormon and sometimes speaks for his past beliefs...

JPHolding has also published a book on Mormonism... Here's his look at Smith's prophecy with LDS feedback... http://www.tektonics.org/josproph.html

Yours,
Xavier

[Trout]

Hey Trout, I don't think you'll have anyone dispute these! We haven't had any actual Mormons on these boards as far back as I can remember!

I'm trolling my friend, I have my line set into the deep waters of the world wide web.

[Xavier]

I'm trolling my friend, I have my line set into the deep waters of the world wide web.

Calling all LDS Apologists... Calling all LDS Apologists....

DEFEND YOUR FAITH!!!!!!!!

[Trout]

Calling all LDS Apologists... Calling all LDS Apologists....

DEFEND YOUR FAITH!!!!!!!!

To borrow a line from Jaws, "We're gonna need a bigger boat"

[Amazing Rando]

To borrow a line from Jaws, "We're gonna need a bigger boat"

I'd love for some actual Mormons to show up. We can mail them a complementary copy of JPH's book!

[Xavier]

I'd love for some actual Mormons to show up. We can mail them a complementary copy of JPH's book!

If you can find one who will read it, I'll read the Book of Mormon... <shudder>

[Xmansmommy]

Wow! We might actually get a Mormon or two who'll sign up just to make you make good on that :x:.

[Xavier]

Bring em on...

[Xmansmommy]

I'd invite some personally, but the ones I know IRL don't talk to me anymore. And the one or two I know on Paltalk wouldn't possibly venture out beyond the comfort of the LDS teachings.

[Dave G]

I'd invite some personally, but the ones I know IRL don't talk to me anymore. And the one or two I know on Paltalk wouldn't possibly venture out beyond the comfort of the LDS teachings.

I'm not sure what to say to people who think the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas are descended from the Israelites.

[John Powell]

POWELL (the atheist):
First, here is just one of many "didn't happen" Biblical prophecies to somewhat balance the playing field, to show that if Mormons have a problem with failed prophecies it wasn't something that started with them, but it's something they borrowed from the Bible.

Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Tyre (Ezek 26). Didn't happen.

If Troutk13 can answer this "didn't happen" Biblical prophecy about Tyre then he would be in a more justified position to criticize Mormon prophecies that "didn't happen." Let him show reason to believe it did happen and I will show reason to believe it didn't.

* Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84)
No longer teach the gathering and temple never built.

JOHN MORMON (my former believing self):
If they are worthy. Mormons do still teach the gathering to that area, just not right now. For later maybe.

According to Jonah, the city of Nineveh was to be destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3). Didn't happen.

According to God, Saul to come down and the men of Keilah to turn David in (1 Sam 23). Didn't happen.

Prophecies are contingent things. Not absolute things.

* Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall (D&C 97:19)
Mormons driven out.

JOHN MORMON:
Misquote. God isn't claiming Zion can't fail, but certain nations will claim it.

* Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) (D&C 103)
Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise.

JOHN MORMON:
Read v. 5. It's a contingent promise.

Don't you remember Abraham arguing with God about how many good people there needed to be in Sodom and Gomorrah before it was justified to destroy those cities (Gen 18)? Would you say God doesn't know how many it takes? Don't you remember Gideon ordered to reduce the number of soldiers, but God's method didn't work well enough the first time (Judge 7)? Would you say God didn't know that his method wouldn't reduce the number sufficiently the first time?

God does not know the future. People have free will.

* Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87)
England and other nations did not join in.

JOHN MORMON:
To some extent they did. Some things are contingent upon what other people do.

* United Order (D&C 104)
V.1 Commanded as everlasting order; V.48 & 53 dissolved and reorganized.

JOHN MORMON:
Ignorance of Mormon terminology. Words like "everlasting" and "eternal" are synonyms for "God" (D&C 19:10-12). They don't necessarily mean the thing will happen for ever, but that they have a divine origin. People have free will. God must accommodate.

* Riches of Salem to pay church debt (D&C 111)
No riches found, debts not paid

JOHN MORMON:
Read v. 11. Apparently, they weren't ready. God's promises are contingent on our obedience. God does not know the future. We have free will.

* Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 (D&C 114)
He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn't God have known he was going to die before the next spring?

JOHN MORMON:
God does not know the future. We have free will. The point was that Patten was obeying God. Whether he died as a missionary or beforehand, he would be rewarded for his obedience.

Jesus promised that some of those listening to his sermon would see His second coming (Matt 16:28), but it didn't happen. The early Christians were not sufficiently obedient, so Jesus had to postpone His return for several thousand years.

* New gathering place and temple in Far West (D&C 115)
LDS driven out, never built the temple.

JOHN MORMON:
These things are contingent upon the worthiness of the saints.

* Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths (D&C 124)
Temple and house not completed

JOHN MORMON:
These things are contingent upon the worthiness of the Church.

* Christ to return in 1890-1891 period (D&C 130:14-15)
Christ did not return.

JOHN MORMON:
Misquote. It was a promise if Joseph lived to be that old.

POWELL (the atheist):
Joseph Smith was no dummy. He surely recognized that if the Bible could make prophecies that were not fulfilled then He could risk doing the same thing. He surely expected that the kind of apologetics that is used to justify the Bible's failures could be used to justify his own failures.

John Powell

[Trout]

POWELL (the atheist):
First, here is just one of many "didn't happen" Biblical prophecies to somewhat balance the playing field, to show that if Mormons have a problem with failed prophecies it wasn't something that started with them, but it's something they borrowed from the Bible.

Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Tyre (Ezek 26). Didn't happen.

If Troutk13 can answer this "didn't happen" Biblical prophecy about Tyre then he would be in a more justified position to criticize Mormon prophecies that "didn't happen." Let him show reason to believe it did happen and I will show reason to believe it didn't.

Notice that troutk13 named the thread, "Questionable Prophesies",in doing so he left open the idea that satisfying answers are highly subjective in such a dialogue. (Why are we talking about troutk in the third person?)

With that in mind, I wonder how satisfied JP is with the answers that JM gave to the initial query? If JP is happy with them then it should make the biblical apologist's job quite easy, if JP isn't satisfied with the answers given, then what was his point?

POWELL (the atheist):
Joseph Smith was no dummy. He surely recognized that if the Bible could make prophecies that were not fulfilled then He could risk doing the same thing. He surely expected that the kind of apologetics that is used to justify the Bible's failures could be used to justify his own failures.

John Powell

The more I read about Joseph Smith the more I admire many of his qualities. I don't however agree with you in your assessment of Joseph's knowledge of the Bible's so-called failures. I am of the opinion that he was the consumate con artist, able by his charisma in conjunction with his quick mind and verbal skills to convince just about anyone of just about anything.

[John Powell]

POWELL (the atheist):
First, here is just one of many "didn't happen" Biblical prophecies to somewhat balance the playing field, to show that if Mormons have a problem with failed prophecies it wasn't something that started with them, but it's something they borrowed from the Bible.

Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Tyre (Ezek 26). Didn't happen.

If Troutk13 can answer this "didn't happen" Biblical prophecy about Tyre then he would be in a more justified position to criticize Mormon prophecies that "didn't happen." Let him show reason to believe it did happen and I will show reason to believe it didn't.

TROUTK13:
Notice that troutk13 named the thread, "Questionable Prophesies",in doing so he left open the idea that satisfying answers are highly subjective in such a dialogue. (Why are we talking about troutk in the third person?)

With that in mind, I wonder how satisfied JP is with the answers that JM gave to the initial query? If JP is happy with them then it should make the biblical apologist's job quite easy, if JP isn't satisfied with the answers given, then what was his point?

POWELL:
Powell needs to take the sidelines in this section of TWEB.

JOHN MORMON:
Ok, Troutk13, you seem to think that when God reveals a prophecy then it's going to happen, no ifs, ands, or buts. Is that your position?

POWELL (the atheist):
Joseph Smith was no dummy. He surely recognized that if the Bible could make prophecies that were not fulfilled then He could risk doing the same thing. He surely expected that the kind of apologetics that is used to justify the Bible's failures could be used to justify his own failures.

John Powell

TROUTKE:
The more I read about Joseph Smith the more I admire many of his qualities. I don't however agree with you in your assessment of Joseph's knowledge of the Bible's so-called failures. I am of the opinion that he was the consumate con artist, able by his charisma in conjunction with his quick mind and verbal skills to convince just about anyone of just about anything.

JOHN MORMON:
If you sincerely read the Book of Mormon you may find uncanny explanations for your situation. Then perhaps you'll think higher of the Prophet.

John Powell