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Thread: Trump's Trade Deals...

  1. #11
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    A tariff is a tax on imports and paid directly to the Treasury, Trump is correct here. But they often result in higher consumer costs for us, Carp is correct there.
    An import tariff is a tax on imports paid directly to the treasury by the importer of the goods. It is not paid by the original manufacturer unless that manufacturer is also the importer of record. The impact on the original manufacturer is usually indirect: their product has a higher price and is therefore less attractive.

    Because the importer pays the tax, they pass that on to the consumer in the form of higher prices. Ergo - an import tariff is a tax normally paid by Americans - not by the Chinese. The top U.S. importers include Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Lowe's, Dole, Samsung America, Family Dollar/Dollar Tree, LG Group, Philips, and IKEA.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #12
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    What point? Let me repeat:A tariff is a tax on imports and paid directly to the Treasury, Trump is correct here. But they often result in higher consumer costs for us, Carp is correct there.
    The point: that U.S. companies are paying the tax directly to the Treasury - not the Chinese. That is the lie Trump continually repeats - presumably because he knows at least some part of his base will accept it as true. That is one of his "art of the deal" techniques: repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth for a significant part of the listening audience.

    And when the good cannot be secured elsewhere - or the good is still less expensive even WITH the tariff, the result is little/no impact on the manufacturer and higher costs to the consumer.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #13
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    A tariff is a tax on imports and paid directly to the Treasury, Trump is correct here. But they often result in higher consumer costs for us, Carp is correct there.
    And the goal, of course, is that products "Proudly Made in the USA" will have a lower price tag and therefore be more attractive to consumers which will drive sales and US manufacturing.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - the proof is Trump's own tweet...which repeats something he's now tweeted (and said) several times. Did you not follow the link?
    Why you said:

    "Trump doesn't know what he's doing."

    What you meant:

    "I disagree with what Trump is doing."

    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  5. #15
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Why you said:

    "Trump doesn't know what he's doing."

    What you meant:

    "I disagree with what Trump is doing."
    No. The definition of who pays a tariff is clear. The person imposing them either doesn't know that, or is chronically lying. Neither is good.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #16
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    And the goal, of course, is that products "Proudly Made in the USA" will have a lower price tag and therefore be more attractive to consumers which will drive sales and US manufacturing.
    You guys have a chronic tendency to argue points not being made. I said nothing about agreeing or disagreeing - if you think so, please point to the post. I said nothing about the effect being other than raising the prices of goods. So you are both busily erecting strawmen - which is pretty common around here - and then knocking them down. How about sticking with what I actually said.

    Trump is wrong about who is paying the tariff. He is either ignorant about it, or he is repeating a lie over and over. THAT is my statement. Adding to it and making claims I said other things doesn't change that.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-12-2019 at 06:32 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #17
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The point: that U.S. companies are paying the tax directly to the Treasury - not the Chinese. That is the lie Trump continually repeats - presumably because he knows at least some part of his base will accept it as true. That is one of his "art of the deal" techniques: repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth for a significant part of the listening audience.

    And when the good cannot be secured elsewhere - or the good is still less expensive even WITH the tariff, the result is little/no impact on the manufacturer and higher costs to the consumer.
    And so you are in the do nothing camp, because nothing else we tried so far has worked.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  8. #18
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And so you are in the do nothing camp, because nothing else we tried so far has worked.
    Nice try, Seer, bit still a sidetrack to what I said. I have said nothing about what we should or should not do. I have said nothing about right/wrong approach.

    My statement: Trump is either ignorant about how import tariffs work or he is chronically lying about how they work. Neither is a good thing in a president, IMO.

    Every response, so far, has ignored that statement and gone off on tangents. Responding to things I have NOT said is not useful, and suggests that you have no response to what I have actually said.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #19
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Trump is wrong about who is paying the tariff. He is either ignorant about it, or he is repeating a lie over and over.
    We're going to need more than your say-so.

    In other words, let's see you lay out Trump's entire economic plan and trade policy, what deals he has reached with who, who is paying what and to whom, etc. So far you've done little more than stamp your feet and shout "Nuh-uh!"
    Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-12-2019 at 07:16 AM.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #20
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    We're going to need more than your say-so.
    My say so?

    You mean I have to prove to you who pays an import tariff? I have to assume you don't know how import tariffs work either.

    A tariff is a tax on imported goods. Despite what the President says, it is almost always paid directly by the importer (usually a domestic firm), and never by the exporting country. Thus, if the US imposes a tariff on Chinese televisions, the duty is paid to the US Customs and Border Protection Service at the border by a US broker representing a US importer, say, Costco.

    source


    Goods may be imported to the United States subject to import restrictions. Importers of goods may be subject to tax (“customs duty” or “tariff”) on the imported value of the goods. “Imported goods are not legally entered until after the shipment has arrived within the port of entry, delivery of the merchandise has been authorized by CBP, and estimated duties have been paid.”[1] Importation and declaration and payment of customs duties is done by the importer of record, which may be the owner of the goods, the purchaser, or a licensed customs broker. Goods may be stored in a bonded warehouse or a Foreign-Trade Zone in the United States for up to five years without payment of duties.

    source


    A tariff is a tax on imported goods. Despite what the president says, it is almost always paid directly by the importer (usually a domestic firm), and never by the exporting country. Thus, if the U.S. imposes a tariff on Chinese televisions, the duty is paid to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Service at the border by a U.S. broker representing a U.S. importer, say, Costco.

    source


    This is pretty basic stuff. I'm a little surprised this observation is getting anything other than a nod and an "I know."

    Import tariffs are paid by importers. They are not paid by the manufacturer unless the manufacturer is the importer of record. In the U.S., the biggest importers are U.S. retail companies and manufacturers. These are all demonstrable facts. If you disagree, tell me which of those statements is not true. If they are true, then Trump's statements about China paying to the U.S. Treasury are false. He either is ignorant of the fact, or he is (again) lying repeatedly. Neither is very good for a sitting president.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    In other words, let's see you lay out Trump's entire economic plan and trade policy, what deals he has reached with who, who is paying what and to whom, etc. So far you've done little more than stamp your feet and shout "Nuh-uh!"
    Why on earth do I need to do ANY of that to support the statement "Trump either does not know how import tariff's work, or is lying about them." All I need to show is how an import tariff works. The tariffs are NOT being paid by China. That statement, on his part, is false. So he's either ignorant about it - or he's intentionally lying. I have made no statements about his policies, my agreement/disagreement, or whether they will succeed. This is a sidetrack you and Seer apparently want to keep dragging me into.

    Clear statement: "Trump is either ignorant of how import tariffs work, or he is repeatedly lying about them."

    That is what I have said. That is ALL I have said. I'm not going to defend things I didn't say or positions I do not hold.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-12-2019 at 08:17 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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