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Thread: Trump's Trade Deals...

  1. #21
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    No, you should prove your assertion that Trump is either ignorant or lying about economic matters. A third possibility, of course, is that it's you who are ignorant and don't understand the full scope and context of Trump's (and his team's) policy.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. #22
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    No, you should prove your assertion that Trump is either ignorant or lying about economic matters.
    I did not say "economic matters." I said "import tariffs." Trump's statement is demonstrably false - as has been shown. Ergo - he is either ignorant of the truth - or he is aware of the truth and lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    A third possibility, of course, is that it's you who are ignorant and don't understand the full scope and context of Trump's (and his team's) policy.
    I also said nothing about "policy." You and Seer continue to add to my posts what is not in there.

    MY STATEMENT: Trump either does not understand how import tariff's work, or is lying about them. The proof is Trump's own statements and tweets (already linked) and the definition of how an import tariff works. They are NOT paid for by the source country - they are paid for by the importer of note.

    I am at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you and/or Seer, or why both of you feel a need to add things to my statement I did not put there. I have to assume that either you do not want to acknowledge the reality about Trump, or you simply are not able to grasp the concept. It's not a difficult one.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #23
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    STATEMENT: Trump either does not understand who import tariff's work, or is lying about them.
    The point is that you're presenting a false dilemma. Another possibility is that you are ignorant of certain details that inform Trump's statement.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #24
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The point is that you're presenting a false dilemma. Another possibility is that you are ignorant of certain details that inform Trump's statement.
    MM - Trump's statement is false: import tariff's are not being paid for by China - a) that's not how import tariff's work - they are paid for by the importer of record; b) in the U.S., no Chinese company is in the top 10 importers. So he is either ignorant of these facts, or lying about it.

    This is not a "false dilemma." Your responses are somewhat akin to this:

    Initial claim: Toddlers are paying most of the income tax in the U.S.
    Statement: The claim 'toddlers are paying most of the income tax in the U.S." is false, so the person saying it is either ignorant of how income tax works, or is repeating a lie over and over.
    Response: Prove to me that tax policy is failing, or that there isn't something you are ignorant of that makes that statement true!



    At this point, this exchange has become so ludicrous...it's a waste of my time to continue. Last word to you.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-12-2019 at 11:31 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #25
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    No, you should prove your assertion that Trump is either ignorant or lying about economic matters. A third possibility, of course, is that it's you who are ignorant and don't understand the full scope and context of Trump's (and his team's) policy.
    Actually MM, Carp is correct, but over all what Trump is doing is good and necessary.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  6. #26
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    MM - Trump's statement is false: import tariff's are not being paid for by China - a) that's not how import tariff's work - they are paid for by the importer of record; b) in the U.S., no Chinese company is in the top 10 importers. So he is either ignorant of these facts, or lying about it.
    Or there are other facts that you are not aware of which make Trump's statement neither inaccurate nor deceptive.

    At least you could concede that much.

    For my part, I'll accept that Trump's statement is perhaps incomplete, but then, I'm not committed to the narrative that he's a chronic liar, so...
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  7. #27
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    As the costs of import tariffs flow into the wider economy, domestic manufacturers have the opportunity to raise their prices and still compete with the now more expensive foreign goods. Ultimately, the consumer pays for the tariffs.

    Tariffs force consumers to protect domestic suppliers; you might think of it as a sort of stealth tax in support of domestic industry.

    The situation is much more complicated in practice because the trading country can raise its own import tariffs too. All this taxation tends to throttle the world economy.
    Last edited by firstfloor; 05-13-2019 at 12:31 AM.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
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  8. #28
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    As the costs of import tariffs flow into the wider economy, domestic manufacturers have the opportunity to raise their prices and still compete with the now more expensive foreign goods. Ultimately, the consumer pays for the tariffs.

    Tariffs force consumers to protect domestic suppliers; you might think of it as a sort of stealth tax in support of domestic industry.

    The situation is much more complicated in practice because the trading country can raise its own import tariffs too. All this taxation tends to throttle the world economy.
    And there is another dynamic. Tax cuts impact importers of record, and they have to recover those costs somehow. That typically means higher prices to the consumer. A study by Trade Partnership concluded that the new tariffs, if they stay in place, will cost an average family of four $767 per year, which wipes out at least half of the average gain from the tax cut. And even with these new revenues, the federal deficit is projected to stay around $1T per year and exceed $1T by 2022.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #29
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    And there is another dynamic. Tax cuts impact importers of record, and they have to recover those costs somehow. That typically means higher prices to the consumer. A study by Trade Partnership concluded that the new tariffs, if they stay in place, will cost an average family of four $767 per year, which wipes out at least half of the average gain from the tax cut. And even with these new revenues, the federal deficit is projected to stay around $1T per year and exceed $1T by 2022.
    No doubt there will be short term pain, but the goal is a new trade deal that will be more advantageous for us. And no one is talking about the millions of manufacturing jobs lost because of these bad deals. Personally I would rather pay a little more if keeps my neighbor employed. Like you said Carp, it is not all about the money.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #30
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No doubt there will be short term pain, but the goal is a new trade deal that will be more advantageous for us. And no one is talking about the millions of manufacturing jobs lost because of these bad deals. Personally I would rather pay a little more if keeps my neighbor employed. Like you said Carp, it is not all about the money.
    Correct - it's not all about money (convenient of you to pull out that chestnut when it suits you ).

    But it is about whether or not the occupant of the White House is actually giving the American public the straight dope - and he generally is not. He's like the con artist that keeps your attention focused over there while he picks your pocket over here. There is little/no evidence that the "common man" has been systemically benefited. What evidence is presented is in the form of anecdotes or carefully cherry-picked data. And it is about the overall impact of his policies on the common man, and so far the data shows that Trump and the Republicans have disproportionately benefited the rich - largely at the expense of future generations. And why not? After all, as Trump notes - he'll be out of office by the time THAT becomes and problem - and those future generations are not objecting...right?

    But don't get me wrong. I'm all in favor of him continuing down this road and hiking those tariffs. Go Trump go! When we couple those who are not driven by money to those who actually are and are getting screwed - his hopes for 2020 just keep getting dimmer and dimmer.

    Then, maybe in January 2021, we can truly say, "go, Trump, go"
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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