Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 40

Thread: Jesus killed babies!?

  1. #21
    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Reformed Baptist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    216
    Amen (Given)
    35
    Amen (Received)
    77
    And of course Jeremiah 8:8 in context is speaking of those who claim to follow God's law but are hypocrites, much like the Pharisees (Matthew 15:2-3;6).

  2. #22
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    452
    Amen (Given)
    65
    Amen (Received)
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    And of course Jeremiah 8:8 in context is speaking of those who claim to follow God's law but are hypocrites, much like the Pharisees (Matthew 15:2-3;6).
    Exactly.

    The best way to find out from Muslims where they think the Bible is corrupted is to ask them about verses in the Qur'an that contradict the Bible.

    Like one verse says that Noah's family was saved from the flood and another verse says that one of Noah's sons refused to get on the Ark and drowned.

    Another issue is to ask about Allah needing a wife in order to have a son. Apparently the author of the Qur'an believed that Christians believed that Jesus was the result of sex between God and Mary.

    Of course, the death and resurrection is another one. Allah claimed to teach Jesus the Gospel but the core of the Gospel is Jesus' death and resurrection. IOWs the author of the Qur'an didn't know what the Gospel was.

    And, the author of the Qur'an claims Jesus couldn't be God because He had to eat food which means Allah had never heard of the incarnation which means Allah is not the one and only all-knowing God.

  3. Amen ReformedApologist, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,404
    Amen (Given)
    5554
    Amen (Received)
    5748
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Jesus killed babies, so says a Muslim.

    "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Sam 15:2–3)

    His logic is since Christians believe Jesus is God and God ordered babies to be killed, then Jesus killed babies.

    How would you respond to this claim?

    Thanks.
    The simplest answer is that all life was created by and belongs to God, and it is his right to take it, or to order it taken.

    The longer answer is that the Amalekite nation was being punished by God for its sins, and we can assume that God, being compassionate and merciful, gave them ample warning and opportunity to repent, and that his order to the Israelite was the "final straw" against a wicked nation. Most people push back against this saying, "But why couldn't only the defiant members be punished with death, and the rest allowed to live?" The answer is sociological in nature since the "group-think" of collectivist societies would mean that everybody was on board with the rebellion against God; furthermore, God does not indiscriminately kill the righteous along with the unrighteous (in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, he said he would have been willing to spare the cities if there were as few as 10 righteous to be found). The next objection is "But the babies would have been innocent! Why couldn't the Israelites have at least adopted them?" Because survival back then was very difficult, and a sudden influx of possibly thousands of helpless new mouths to feed could have easily threatened the survival of the Israelite nation. In this case, a quick death by sword was preferable.

    This is one of those questions that is easier to ask than to answer, and many people who pose it as an objection the idea of a loving God rarely find the answer satisfactory, but that's their problem.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  5. Amen The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  6. #24
    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Reformed Baptist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    216
    Amen (Given)
    35
    Amen (Received)
    77
    Just for reference Paul Copan deals with this issue in his books Is God A Moral Monster and Did God Command Genocide. It is more in depth and deals with various aspects.

  7. #25
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    720
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    102
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Jesus killed babies, so says a Muslim.

    "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Sam 15:3[*])

    His logic is since Christians believe Jesus is God and God ordered babies to be killed, then Jesus killed babies.

    How would you respond to this claim?

    [* NIV (1984)]

    Thanks.
    Even if the doctrine of eternal Sonship is assumed (as usually it is), it must be called to mind that the divine Logos, the second person of the Trinity, had not yet become incarnate (i.e. assumed human nature) during the old-covenant era recounted in 1 Samuel/1 Kingdoms. Though undoubtedly foreknown by God before the creation of the world, the name ‘Jesus’ (Ἰησοῦ, Iēsou) appears to have been bestowed in time upon the Logos with specific reference to his earthly, redemptive mission, from the commencement of his incarnation onwards (see Mt 1.21; Lk 1.31). If this assessment is correct, rather than saying that Jesus commanded the destruction of the Amalekites, it would be more accurate to say that the Father, the pre-incarnate Logos/Son, and the Holy Spirit directed this course of action to be carried out by the people of Israel.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  8. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  9. #26
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    720
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    102
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Jesus didn't exist as a human being, but God the Son did. Who became incarnate as Jesus. They are the same person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    well your initial argument (the muslim's was: "Jesus is God and God ordered the killing of babies, so Jesus did" - while not technically true, "Jesus" wasn't there, God was as was God the son. So yeah God ordered the killing of infants. But then so did Allah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Well, Jesus didn't exist as a human being before He was born, but He still existed as God the Son. God the Son didn't become a different person when He incarnated as a human, He took on human nature and the name Jesus. So everything God the Son did prior to His incarnation can still be attributed to the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  10. #27
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    452
    Amen (Given)
    65
    Amen (Received)
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Even if the doctrine of eternal Sonship is assumed (as usually it is), it must be called to mind that the divine Logos, the second person of the Trinity, had not yet become incarnate (i.e. assumed human nature) during the old-covenant era recounted in 1 Samuel/1 Kingdoms. Though undoubtedly foreknown by God before the creation of the world, the name ‘Jesus’ (Ἰησοῦ, Iēsou) appears to have been bestowed in time upon the Logos with specific reference to his earthly, redemptive mission, from the commencement of his incarnation onwards (see Mt 1.21; Lk 1.31). If this assessment is correct, rather than saying that Jesus commanded the destruction of the Amalekites, it would be more accurate to say that the Father, the pre-incarnate Logos/Son, and the Holy Spirit directed this course of action to be carried out by the people of Israel.
    Yes.

  11. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    48,973
    Amen (Given)
    4870
    Amen (Received)
    21707
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    True.



    No, Jesus became God the Son at the incarnation when Jesus was conceived.

    No, He was always God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. The trinity is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. It has always been so. The Son took on Flesh at the incarnation, and was named Jesus. That is all.

  12. #29
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    48,973
    Amen (Given)
    4870
    Amen (Received)
    21707
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    You are talking about the second person of the Trinity.

    Jesus of Nazareth as a human being could not do what he sees the Father doing anymore than you and I could.

    It is the second person of the Trinity who is eternal, not Jesus as a human being.
    They are the same person. Jesus is just the name he took on when he added a human nature. He is still God the Son, eternally begotten.

    The human Jesus is not a separate person from God the Son. They are one person with two natures.

  13. Amen Christianbookworm, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  14. #30
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Finland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,924
    Amen (Given)
    5212
    Amen (Received)
    3519
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    They are the same person. Jesus is just the name he took on when he added a human nature. He is still God the Son, eternally begotten.

    The human Jesus is not a separate person from God the Son. They are one person with two natures.
    He* is one person with two natures.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •