Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Early head and heart

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    Given that the video you linked indicated that organisms were doing pattern-based foraging in their environment in the Ediacaran, i'm wondering how you think they managed that a without a brain or any sensory systems?
    Oh, they had sensory systems for sure, but not much of a brain to speak of, according to the video.

    Without looking it up, how long do you think the Ediacaran was? What fraction of that do we have signs of multicellular life from? And how well represented is the Ediacaran in the fossil record?
    I'll say 200 million years, I don't know what fraction of that we have signs of multicellular life from off the top of my head, and as I recall, there are several main sites for Ediacaran fossils, the Burgess Shale being one of them.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      OK, possibly, so what?!?!?! Moving the goal posts does not help your religious agenda. Will still have many millions years to evolve.
      The goalposts are the same, the time left for brains and cardiovascular systems to evolve, and substantially less time for this makes evolution more problematic.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        The goalposts are the same, the time left for brains and cardiovascular systems to evolve, and substantially less time for this makes evolution more problematic.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        Not so, we have hundreds of millions of years. You not only have an agenda, but a poor sense of geologic time.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Oh, they had sensory systems for sure, but not much of a brain to speak of, according to the video.
          It said roughly "no brains like today's brains", if i recall correctly. That does not mean "no brains". And, as Rogue said, where do you think the input from those sensory organs was going if not to a brain?

          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          I'll say 200 million years, I don't know what fraction of that we have signs of multicellular life from off the top of my head, and as I recall, there are several main sites for Ediacaran fossils, the Burgess Shale being one of them.
          If you have no idea how much time there was (and your answers make clear you don't), how can you possibly say there wasn't much time for evolution to act?

          Also, Burgess Shale was Cambrian.
          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Oh, they had sensory systems for sure, but not much of a brain to speak of, according to the video.


            I'll say 200 million years, I don't know what fraction of that we have signs of multicellular life from off the top of my head, and as I recall, there are several main sites for Ediacaran fossils, the Burgess Shale being one of them.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Check your math. The Fuxianhuia is 520 million years ago, and the recent discovery of fungus 1000 to 900 million years ago.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Oh, they had sensory systems for sure, but not much of a brain to speak of, according to the video.


              I'll say 200 million years, I don't know what fraction of that we have signs of multicellular life from off the top of my head, and as I recall, there are several main sites for Ediacaran fossils, the Burgess Shale being one of them.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Actually they said that the brains were unlike what we see today which doesn't equate to having "not much of a brain to speak of." Anywho... The brain would still have to be at least sufficient for there to be sensory organs plugged into it and working.

              And btw, the Burgess Shale is from the Middle Cambrian -- some 508 million years ago (mya) whereas the Ediacaran spans from 635 mya to 540 mya.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Actually they said that the brains were unlike what we see today which doesn't equate to having "not much of a brain to speak of."
                Well, she said "things that led to brains today".

                The brain would still have to be at least sufficient for there to be sensory organs plugged into it and working.
                At least a central nervous system, I still don't know that we can speak of brains in the Ediacaran.

                And btw, the Burgess Shale is from the Middle Cambrian -- some 508 million years ago (mya) whereas the Ediacaran spans from 635 mya to 540 mya.
                Yes, my memory was faulty.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  At least a central nervous system, I still don't know that we can speak of brains in the Ediacaran.
                  Given that this was pointed out to you a week ago, why did you keep saying "no brains" for the intervening week?

                  And, while we're at it, why did you keep saying that time was so short that it creates a problem when you had no idea how much time was involved?
                  "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    The goalposts are the same, the time left for brains and cardiovascular systems to evolve, and substantially less time for this makes evolution more problematic.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    Explain substantially less time when we have at least 400 to 500 million years + since fungus existed.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                      Given that this was pointed out to you a week ago, why did you keep saying "no brains" for the intervening week?
                      Well, you said the video was ambiguous on this point, I claim that "things that led to brains today" would not be a brain.

                      And, while we're at it, why did you keep saying that time was so short that it creates a problem when you had no idea how much time was involved?
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon
                      Explain substantially less time when we have at least 400 to 500 million years + since fungus existed.
                      I'm estimating from the end of the Ediacaran to the appearance of Fuxianhuia, so about 540 mya to 520 mya.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Well, you said the video was ambiguous on this point, I claim that "things that led to brains today" would not be a brain.
                        True, the Fuxianhuia evolved from simpler animals with simpler nervous systems, evolved from animals without a nervous systems.



                        I'm estimating from the end of the Ediacaran to the appearance of Fuxianhuia, so about 540 mya to 520 mya.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Life forms began and evolved much earlier. There is no evidence that the beginning nor end of the Ediacaran is any meaningful point in time to reference the beginning of evolution that would lead from primitive life forms to the Fuxianhuia. In fact choosing the 'end of the Ediacaran' is arbitrary as far as evolution is concerned especially with the discovery of older fossils than the older beginning boundary estimated based on a climatic change at the end of the Marinoan glaciation, and extensive carbonate deposits over the glaciation.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-29-2019, 04:01 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Well, you said the video was ambiguous on this point, I claim that "things that led to brains today" would not be a brain.
                          Yes, which is saying "it does not support your 'no brains' contention." And yet you continued to act as if it did.

                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          I'm estimating from the end of the Ediacaran to the appearance of Fuxianhuia, so about 540 mya to 520 mya.
                          What biological basis do you have for picking the end of the Ediacaran?
                          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                          Comment


                          • Further comment: The Marinoan glaciation lasted from approximately 650 to 635 Ma (million years ago). It is documented that a diversity of life forms existed prior to this with the recent discovery of fossils, like the fungus found as ~900 to1,000 millions of years a go. It is difficult to find fossils in the Marinoan glaciation period.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                              Yes, which is saying "it does not support your 'no brains' contention." And yet you continued to act as if it did.
                              Well, that's because I disagree with your conclusion! I hold that "things that led to brains" would not be brains.

                              What biological basis do you have for picking the end of the Ediacaran?
                              If things that led to brains would be what we see in the Ediacaran, then the end of the Ediacaran would be the first chance for a brain.

                              Source: Paulin

                              Nervous systems appear to have evolved in the late Ediacaran period about 550 million years ago (Ma), at the same time that animals first started eating each other.

                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Further comment: The Marinoan glaciation lasted from approximately 650 to 635 Ma (million years ago). It is documented that a diversity of life forms existed prior to this with the recent discovery of fossils, like the fungus found as ~900 to1,000 millions of years a go.
                                That's fine, but I'm trying to consider when brains and relatively complex cardiovascular systems may have first appeared.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-18-2024, 12:15 PM
                                48 responses
                                135 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 03-07-2024, 08:52 AM
                                16 responses
                                74 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by rogue06, 02-28-2024, 11:06 AM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X