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Thread: Early head and heart

  1. #101
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, you said the video was ambiguous on this point, I claim that "things that led to brains today" would not be a brain.
    True, the Fuxianhuia evolved from simpler animals with simpler nervous systems, evolved from animals without a nervous systems.



    I'm estimating from the end of the Ediacaran to the appearance of Fuxianhuia, so about 540 mya to 520 mya.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Life forms began and evolved much earlier. There is no evidence that the beginning nor end of the Ediacaran is any meaningful point in time to reference the beginning of evolution that would lead from primitive life forms to the Fuxianhuia. In fact choosing the 'end of the Ediacaran' is arbitrary as far as evolution is concerned especially with the discovery of older fossils than the older beginning boundary estimated based on a climatic change at the end of the Marinoan glaciation, and extensive carbonate deposits over the glaciation.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-29-2019 at 02:01 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #102
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, you said the video was ambiguous on this point, I claim that "things that led to brains today" would not be a brain.
    Yes, which is saying "it does not support your 'no brains' contention." And yet you continued to act as if it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I'm estimating from the end of the Ediacaran to the appearance of Fuxianhuia, so about 540 mya to 520 mya.
    What biological basis do you have for picking the end of the Ediacaran?
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #103
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Further comment: The Marinoan glaciation lasted from approximately 650 to 635 Ma (million years ago). It is documented that a diversity of life forms existed prior to this with the recent discovery of fossils, like the fungus found as ~900 to1,000 millions of years a go. It is difficult to find fossils in the Marinoan glaciation period.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #104
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Yes, which is saying "it does not support your 'no brains' contention." And yet you continued to act as if it did.
    Well, that's because I disagree with your conclusion! I hold that "things that led to brains" would not be brains.

    What biological basis do you have for picking the end of the Ediacaran?
    If things that led to brains would be what we see in the Ediacaran, then the end of the Ediacaran would be the first chance for a brain.

    Source: Paulin

    Nervous systems appear to have evolved in the late Ediacaran period about 550 million years ago (Ma), at the same time that animals first started eating each other.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #105
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Further comment: The Marinoan glaciation lasted from approximately 650 to 635 Ma (million years ago). It is documented that a diversity of life forms existed prior to this with the recent discovery of fossils, like the fungus found as ~900 to1,000 millions of years a go.
    That's fine, but I'm trying to consider when brains and relatively complex cardiovascular systems may have first appeared.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #106
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    That's fine, but I'm trying to consider when brains and relatively complex cardiovascular systems may have first appeared.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    This is at present unknown, but most likely at sometime between 1000 million years ago and when the Fuxianhuia existed. There is no specific definable time frame limit of when the simpler animals that lead to Fuxianhuia existed and evolved. We know when photosynthesis began in the evolutionary process, and when fungus is known to exist, multicellular animals, and bilaterians existed.

    There are hundreds of millions of years for the evolution to take place.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-30-2019 at 02:27 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #107
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, that's because I disagree with your conclusion! I hold that "things that led to brains" would not be brains.
    It doesn't say "things that led to brains". It just says "things not like today's brains". There's a rather enormous difference between those two.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    If things that led to brains would be what we see in the Ediacaran, then the end of the Ediacaran would be the first chance for a brain.

    Source: Paulin

    Nervous systems appear to have evolved in the late Ediacaran period about 550 million years ago (Ma), at the same time that animals first started eating each other.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source

    The paper you're quoting is an argument that this is the timing. Its author doesn't cite any data as a source for that date, which you'd realized if you actually read the paper and checked its references, instead of latching on to the first thing that you think supports your argument. In fact, the only things cited anywhere near that statement are:
    His own arguments that this is when it happened.
    A textbook on the Cambrian.

    Which brings us back to my point: nobody, most certainly not you, knows when brains evolved. It's fair to say that it was somewhere between the origins of bilaterians at about 585 Myear ago, and the Cambrian. But nobody knows exactly where and, because the global glaciations of the Ediacaran wiped about 2km of rocks off the surface of much of the planet, chances aren't great we're going to get an exact date.

    Your entire argument is based on there being too little time available, yet nobody on earth knows how much time was available. Do you see the conflict there?
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  9. #108
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    It doesn't say "things that led to brains". It just says "things not like today's brains". There's a rather enormous difference between those two.
    No, the quote is "things that led to brains today."

    Its author doesn't cite any data as a source for that date, which you'd realized if you actually read the paper and checked its references, instead of latching on to the first thing that you think supports your argument. In fact, the only things cited anywhere near that statement are:
    His own arguments that this is when it happened.
    A textbook on the Cambrian.
    I'm not sure what would satisfy you then! You seem to be implying that the author doesn't know what he's talking about.

    It's fair to say that it was somewhere between the origins of bilaterians at about 585 Myear ago, and the Cambrian.
    Source: Paulin

    Evidence of carnivory appears in the fossil record starting at about 550Ma, and escalates slowly until the relatively sudden appearance of most modern animal phyla in the Cambrian explosion twenty million years later (Erwin and Valentine, 2013; Marshall, 2006). But carnivory is likely to have preceded any of these expensive innovations (Monk et al., 2015).

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    I take this to be further evidence of his claim that "Nervous systems appear to have evolved in the late Ediacaran period about 550 million years ago (Ma), at the same time that animals first started eating each other."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #109
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is at present unknown, but most likely at sometime between 1000 million years ago and when the Fuxianhuia existed.
    Well, see my comments to TheLurch, I think we can narrow the timeframe considerably.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. #110
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    No, the quote is "things that led to brains today."


    I'm not sure what would satisfy you then! You seem to be implying that the author doesn't know what he's talking about.



    Source: Paulin

    Evidence of carnivory appears in the fossil record starting at about 550Ma, and escalates slowly until the relatively sudden appearance of most modern animal phyla in the Cambrian explosion twenty million years later (Erwin and Valentine, 2013; Marshall, 2006). But carnivory is likely to have preceded any of these expensive innovations (Monk et al., 2015).

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    I take this to be further evidence of his claim that "Nervous systems appear to have evolved in the late Ediacaran period about 550 million years ago (Ma), at the same time that animals first started eating each other."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Not as sudden in a time frame of millions of years. I do not see a problem except 'arguing from ignorance' based on a religious agenda that you have clearly and specifically stated.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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