Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 210111213 LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 123

Thread: Early head and heart

  1. #111
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Faith
    MYOB
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,336
    Amen (Given)
    88
    Amen (Received)
    525
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    No, the quote is "things that led to brains today."
    Either way, it does not support a "no brains" contention.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I'm not sure what would satisfy you then! You seem to be implying that the author doesn't know what he's talking about.
    No, i'm pointing out that he's advancing an argument, not stating widely agreed facts. His argument is that complex brains evolved in tandem with carnivory. As such, he makes the contention that the two appeared simultaneously in the fossil record, but is unable to cite a clear indication that this is the case, because we simply don't know precisely when either appeared.

    The next paper you're citing is the proposal that spiking neurons enabled carnivorous behavior. Again, it's interpreting a sparse fossil record in a way that supports its argument.

    Neither of these are wrong. Both are valid interpretations of limited physical evidence. But they're not the primary sources describing that physical evidence, and other interpretations are obviously possible - otherwise, these papers wouldn't need to be making these arguments.

    If you want to talk about what we know about the fossils record, you need to find papers that describe the actual fossils. Why you've wandered into this group of papers, which are focused on issues derived from that record, i'm not entirely sure.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  2. #112
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    14,192
    Amen (Given)
    1529
    Amen (Received)
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, see my comments to TheLurch, I think we can narrow the timeframe considerably.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Not necessarily, the first embryos are found earlier possibly are similar to complex Cambrian organisms.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_fossil


    Fossilized embryos of the 635- to 551-million year old Doushantuo Formation of southern China exhibit occasional asynchronous cell division, common in modern embryos, implying that sophisticated mechanisms for differential cell division timing and embryonic cell lineage differentiation evolved before 551 million years ago. However, embryos composed of hundreds to more than ~1000 cells still show no evidence of blastocoel formation or the organization of blastomeres into epithelia - epithelialization should be underway in modern embryos with >100 cells. Features preserved on Doushantuo embryos are compatible with metazoans (animals), but the absence of epithelialization is consistent only with a stem-metazoan affinity.[4] It is not until the Cambrian that embryos with demonstrable eumetazoan features occur; gastrulation and a pentaradial symmetry are expressed in some lower Cambrian fossils.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #113
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    14,192
    Amen (Given)
    1529
    Amen (Received)
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not necessarily, the first embryos are found earlier possibly are similar to complex Cambrian organisms.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_fossil


    Fossilized embryos of the 635- to 551-million year old Doushantuo Formation of southern China exhibit occasional asynchronous cell division, common in modern embryos, implying that sophisticated mechanisms for differential cell division timing and embryonic cell lineage differentiation evolved before 551 million years ago. However, embryos composed of hundreds to more than ~1000 cells still show no evidence of blastocoel formation or the organization of blastomeres into epithelia - epithelialization should be underway in modern embryos with >100 cells. Features preserved on Doushantuo embryos are compatible with metazoans (animals), but the absence of epithelialization is consistent only with a stem-metazoan affinity.[4] It is not until the Cambrian that embryos with demonstrable eumetazoan features occur; gastrulation and a pentaradial symmetry are expressed in some lower Cambrian fossils.

    © Copyright Original Source

    I thought I would add here that all the fossil and other evidence shows a step by step evolution of life of increasing complexity and diversity. The above reference to the discovery of embryo fossils is very similar to those found in the early Cambrian, but simpler and lack more complex features of the later embryo fossils.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #114
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Amen (Given)
    382
    Amen (Received)
    219
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Either way, it does not support a "no brains" contention.
    Well, I think it does provide an indication in that direction.

    No, i'm pointing out that he's advancing an argument, not stating widely agreed facts.
    He actually seems to be stating his conclusion, albeit cautiously.

    His argument is that complex brains evolved in tandem with carnivory. As such, he makes the contention that the two appeared simultaneously in the fossil record, but is unable to cite a clear indication that this is the case, because we simply don't know precisely when either appeared.
    Well, I'd need to look at the references to be able to tell how much they support his view.

    But maybe here is a good place to stop discussing, since I've said about all I had to say here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #115
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Amen (Given)
    382
    Amen (Received)
    219
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Not necessarily, the first embryos are found earlier possibly are similar to complex Cambrian organisms.
    But I don't think anyone is going to argue that animals similar to Cambrian organisms were present that long ago!

    But this seems like a good stopping point, after 12 pages of discussing.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #116
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    14,192
    Amen (Given)
    1529
    Amen (Received)
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But I don't think anyone is going to argue that animals similar to Cambrian organisms were present that long ago!

    But this seems like a good stopping point, after 12 pages of discussing.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    They did based on the embryo fossils referenced, as fossil of intermediates from less primitive forms and the more complex fossil embryos in the Cambrian.

    The heats on that regardless of the claims of gaps within gaps within gaps ALL the evidence demonstrates an evolving increasing complexity of since the first signs of the simplist life have been discovered. The discoveries over time have just confirming the predictions of scientist since Charles Darwin in the progression of complexity in evolution.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-01-2019 at 01:27 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #117
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Faith
    MYOB
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,336
    Amen (Given)
    88
    Amen (Received)
    525
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    He actually seems to be stating his conclusion, albeit cautiously.
    That's what "advancing an argument" is.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I'd need to look at the references to be able to tell how much they support his view.
    Once again, i'd like to point out that the time to do this is BEFORE using something as supportive evidence. If you don't know whether something actually supports your argument or not, then pretending it does is highly likely to involve misleading everyone here.

    Why would you want to increase the odds that you're going to be deceptive?

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But maybe here is a good place to stop discussing, since I've said about all I had to say here.
    I'm curious. You seem to have a lot you want to say about your conclusions, but you seem pretty hesitant about listening to anything anyone else has to say. What are your goals by posting here?
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  8. #118
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,199
    Amen (Given)
    382
    Amen (Received)
    219
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    I'm curious. You seem to have a lot you want to say about your conclusions, but you seem pretty hesitant about listening to anything anyone else has to say. What are your goals by posting here?
    I want to try out design arguments, so others' comments are welcome. I'm finding that the arguments hold up pretty well, so I'm encouraged. If listening to people means agreeing with them, then you will get the impression that I'm not listening! But glad to discuss here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  9. #119
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    14,192
    Amen (Given)
    1529
    Amen (Received)
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I want to try out design arguments, so others' comments are welcome. I'm finding that the arguments hold up pretty well, so I'm encouraged. If listening to people means agreeing with them, then you will get the impression that I'm not listening! But glad to discuss here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I'm concerned about the highlighted above. Considering TheLurch's responses in all your previous threads there is no reason to consider any 'Intelligent Design' is seriously potentially falsifiable. You may, as you have in previous threads, asserted the possibility of falsification, but there has been no basis in your arguments that 'Intelligent Design' is seriously potentially falsifiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch
    I'm curious. You seem to have a lot you want to say about your conclusions, but you seem pretty hesitant about listening to anything anyone else has to say.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #120
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Faith
    MYOB
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,336
    Amen (Given)
    88
    Amen (Received)
    525
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I want to try out design arguments, so others' comments are welcome. I'm finding that the arguments hold up pretty well, so I'm encouraged. If listening to people means agreeing with them, then you will get the impression that I'm not listening! But glad to discuss here.
    I don't expect you to agree with me. I do expect you to pay attention to evidence and learn some biology if this is a topic that interests you. I've seen absolutely no evidence of the latter. In fact, i've seen no evidence that you've even looked at any of the scientific papers that you've presented as evidence, given that a number of them have directly contradicted your arguments.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  11. Amen shunyadragon, Seeker amen'd this post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •